Technology has revolutionized people's lives in every way over the past decades, and life on campus is no exception. One noticeable change is that Korean universities are making it harder for students to skip class by installing electronic systems to check attendance. The systems have their roots in the multi-function electronic student ID cards which double as debit and library cards that began appearing on campuses in the 1990s.
Around 2000 many universities such as Yonsei began to install terminals in lecture rooms that use student cards to check attendance. Kyunghee University currently boasts one of the most sophisticated computer systems in the country. In 2006 it introduced its so-called "U-Class System," which facilitates interactive checks of students' identification for lecturers. When students insert their ID cards in terminals installed in lecture rooms, their personal information is sent to the lecturer's computer screen in real-time. By clicking a student's photo onscreen, the lecturer can access the student's number, attendance status, and participation rate.
Googling around for more information I see that my post on student-teachers skipping their classes turns up. The money shot of the Chosun Ilbo article is, of course:
"Sometimes there are funny arguments because some students forget to update their photos after getting plastic surgery," a student said.
I imagine another problem would be the popularity of retouching photos here. Looking at photographs of professors on campus they can be quite difficult to recognize, both because some look like they were taken in 2001---lots of brown hair and dark lipstick---and because the photographer was enthusiastic with his Photoshop.
As far as making sure students come to class, fancy systems will only be effective if students are held accountable and not automatically passed regardless of attendance, participation, or scores earned. Reading accounts of university English teaching tells me there's less at stake there than in grade school, and that some students aren't ready to handle independence and responsibility. Here is a recent addition to the classic ExpatKorea thread "Exam Follies":
Some people never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
Today, my grammar class had one more such individual, a moist, lanky creature, who slipped in half an hour late, through the back door of the class, and sat as far back in the corner as possible. He slid in next to a couple of girls who were supposed to be working, and struck up a conversation with them. I looked over at him. He hadn't been to a single class. He leaned back and actually tried to hide behind another student. I stared and stared, and the class started to giggle. He refused to look at me.
I walked over to him, and saw that he had no book. He showed me his name on the register, and we looked together at the long, perfect row of absences. I gave him the review hand-out, and told him to get out. He refused. Didn't even reply. I opened the door, and gestured. He pretended not to see me. Bastard.
It made me so angry to have my classroom invaded by this weirdo. I didn't consider him my student. I considered him an intruder.
According to my supervisor, I'm obliged to give him a D (not an F) if he merely shows up to the exam. Bullshit.
I see there are recent posts on a couple of Korea blogs about test time in universities, and if you know of any other relevant links, please post them in the comment section. Here's an excerpt from A Geek in Korea:
Anyway, being in a position to give actual grades now is a very disorienting experience. People in Korea lobby their teachers for their grades at the end of the semester. This is an acceptable practice in a university. The students think that a final grade is OPEN FOR NEGOTIATION! I can’t imagine EVER going up to one of my college professors and giving them a critical word about my grading. It simply wasn’t done. You’d be laughed out of the room.
And an excerpt from Joe Seoulman, picking up after he tells of an email from a student who stopped coming to class after the second week because she thought she dropped the course:
Then she goes on to tell me that if she fails this course, she'll be kicked out of the university.If I get f in this course then I'll be send down from school. If I have known this earlier I'll never absent from class like this. So I beg you, from all my heart. I'll do anything to get grade- whatever I may cost-. So if I have a chance to getover my fault give me one another chance. Please do not kick me out of this school in my last semester.
Apparently, in her eyes, it will be my fault that she is kicked out of school her last semester of her senior year of college (and thus ruining her entire future).
It's beyond the scope of this post to talk about why college is what it is here, and the degree to which that's a good or bad thing---if such words even reply. Suffice it to say the challenges foreign English teachers face today look to be the same ones they've been facing for decades. It's fun to revisit an article called "My Experiences of Teaching English in Korea" from a 1965 edition of Korea Journal; an excerpt:
What is less easy to sympathize with [than economic considerations] is the acceptance of an appreciable number of students of the pressure and their using it to avoid 'unnecessary' work. The willingness of the faculty to assist graduation by generous marking has the deplorable effect in class of making many students complaisant towards their work. Why work, after all, if examination passing is more or less automatic? Students have frequently come to me with their names and vital statistics written on a piece of paper and asked me to give them an 'A' or a 'B' grade because they had been unable (or unwilling?) to attend any classes during the semester.
Most frustrating of all in this respect is what my friend and I have called 'the conspiracy of mediocrity.' This is a description of an apparent tendency to control the amount and the quality of work done in class in order to facilitate revision for, and the passing of, examinations. The 'conspiracy' manifests itself in complaints that work is too difficult, failure to do assignments, the arranging of class picnics for weekdays instead of weekends and numerous delaying and diversionary tactics in class---the favourite being to ask one to tell the class all about England and English university life. This is made the more annoying by the fact that there are many excellent students in class who went to get on but find that their loyalty to their classmates is stronger.
An offshoot of the economic handicap is the business of the education industry in Korea and its effect on classes, on the students, and hence on the teacher. Koreans tell me with pride of the widescale interest in,and concern for, education here. Everybody either wants to have or wants to give his children as extensive an education as possible. The pressure upon university students does not merely come from the need to present a graduation certificate to their potential employers. It also comes from parents and relatives and the social atmosphere in Korea that insist that a university education is necessary for one who wishes to become an acceptable member of society regardless of whether he is equipped for university or not. I find this objectionable if only because it is bursting with snobbery. I also find that it adversely influences the atmosphere in class.
I used the phrase 'education industry' advisedly and unpejoratively. There is an enormous demand for education and therefore it is supplied on what amounts to a commercial basis---unlike in England where education is largely in the state. Subject ot certain government controls universities must think in terms of fees paid for services rendered of profit and loss. Classes are large and for the reason given in the previous paragraph, they are often filled with students who, perhaps, should never be in a university in the sense in which one usually understands a university. They seem to be willing cogs in a credit-card filling machine. Other students for one reason or another find themselves studying a subject in which they have lost interest but in which they must continue since to change faculties is so difficult. The two kinds of student were neatly blended for me in a student who once told me that he enjoyed English literature very much but hated reading books.
Naturally enough this contributes to the casual approach towards study that is often found in class, to the ever-ready cutting of classes by all students for slight excuses like inter-university football matches (even though few students from the class may actually go to watch the game), to the attitude that if there is a street demonstration in the morning then there can be no classes in the afternoon, to the slipshod work that is done during the five minutes before, and the first five minutes in, the class in the name of assignments and finally to the feeling on the part of the teacher that the students are for these reasons schoolchildren not students.
There is another totally different handicap that students suffer when learning English at university, especially from a foreign teacher. It is the totally inadequate instruction given in middle and high schools in the practical use of English. Students, through little fault of their own other than lack of private initiative, are unable to read English quickly enough for university purposes. When I asked some graduate school students to read a short book as background material for my lectures one of the students said that it would take a fortnight to do so. This I think represents average ability. The problem is aggravated by the difficulty of obtaining books. Students, as a rule, are unable to borrow books from the university library. The choice of books available in city bookshops is limited and those books which a student can afford are even fewer in number. Students are not by English standards well read. One sophomore class of English Literature department students had not, when asked, heard of a poet called Alexander Pope.
Few students have a sufficient mastery of the language to understand a lecture given in English.
Well, I won't quote anymore here. You can read a longer excerpt and some reader comments on this thread from November 2008, or some more reader comments on this thread, or you can just download the short article as a .pdf file from this page.
74 comments:
A good thing to remember when thinking about Korean university education is to realize that it has little to do with education as we understand it. Grading according to the standards that we were held to during our university education is simply unrealistic. Doing so will only cause you grief, cause the students and the administrators grief as they either try to convince you to grade to Korean standards or go behind your back and do it for you. My cynical advice to all newbie uni instructors is to lower your standards and go native. You are not here to change the institutional culture, only to profit from it. Remember, the Korean elite has been educated at the best western universities for fully two generations and many of these people have come back to careers in the top unis here in Seoul. They know how western universities are run, what is expected of students in our schools and they continue to recognize the superiority of these universities by flocking to them. Yet, there has been only minimal change in their own institution’s standards of education. If they are not willing to it themselves, we’re not in a position to do it for them. Take your paycheck, plan your winter vacation on the beach and realize that a Korean uni education is essentially worthless.
Douglas, do you think that "the Korean elite" which has been "educated at the best western universities" were actually graded by the same standard as their fully-fluent classmates?
I somehow doubt that as a professor in the U.S. I would be apt to fail an immigrant because the papers he wrote were atrocious and he couldn't pass the tests because he didn't understand the language used.
They've probably seen the same excuses made for them in the Western system as exist here... just a guess.
Mike,
A fair question and one I can't answer. Given some of the lesser examples of American educated, Ph.D-ed Korean staff at my place of employment, one has to wonder.
Here we go again with western imperialism.
"A Korean uni education is essentially worthless" - Wow, you are some arrogant person.
Have you ever been to a Korean Uni, AK?
Yup, I have and know many smart, great people from top notch Korean universities.
You don't just become a rapidly developed society unprecedented anywhere else in the world by having a workforce with an essentially worthless education.
That's just a slap in the face of all the great hard-working students/parents in Korea and reeks of arrogance and ignorance. Sure, there are many faults in the system as there anywhere else in the world.
But to just be arrogant and an imperialist profiting off of others without a general affection for your hosts is unjust and a disgrace.
AK,
An arrogant agent of western imperialism? Wow, can't say I've ever been called that before.
Keeping attendance at university is a rather alien concept in the west. You're an adult. You pass or fail based on your own efforts.
However, I'm given to understand Koreans are largely "made men" once they're accepted into a university. It's very hard to fail out. The Korean system appears to operate under the George W Bush guide to success: all you have to do is show up.
To that end, I can understand how a university that pretty much guarantees you'll matriculate could at least expect students to show up. (Of course, students work like hell to get into Korean universities and then, arguably, have to work like hell for the rest of their lives, so in a way 4 years of slack isn't necessarily a cultural defect.)
Agreed, Puffin Watch.
The few professors I had that did track attendance did so almost solely based on the fact that it was hard to differentiate between an A and B student based on tests and papers. They resorted to classroom participation and attendance as a means to decide who "deserved an A."
I, for the record, don't think meritocracy is a bad thing and if that is what is meant by "western [sic] imperialism" then so be it.
The laziness and lack of interest in education at the uni level in Korea is appalling.
Imperialist? We're invading the uni's are we? The real disgrace is the cheating and grade fixing I've seen at Korean universities.
Things are different in the East as they are in the West. No better, no worse. Korean students are incredibly gifted and work tremendously hard. Everyone knows that. So of course there is meritocracy in Korea. Maybe not in the Western sense. But the best in Korea get to the top. Korea is the only country in world history to rise at such an INCREDIBLE rate. Everyone knows that at all. You can't get that by just rote memorization and lack of critical thinking. Those are just two of the rather common misconceptions people have again. So yeah, they keep attendance here. Who cares? Who cares?!?! It DOESNT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE!!! Why this is even an article once again boggles my mind!
You know what Matt? If you want to generalize, two can play that game.
The laziness and lack of interest in the American middle/high school education is appalling.
Wow. Just wow.
I love Korean netizens.
Did you actually stomp your feet when you wrote that or just punch the desk?
"So yeah, they keep attendance here. Who cares? Who cares?!?! It DOESNT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE!!! Why this is even an article once again boggles my mind!"
I think I found that yearbook quote I've been looking for.
File this under things I wish I could bet on...
AK will accuse me of not understanding Korean culture.
Let me just ask you a couple of things if you don't mind Matt.
1) How long have you been/stayed in Korea?
2) How well do you speak the language?
Oh, and I love how you just assume things. What makes you think I'm a Korean netizen? LOL. Your assumptions keep going on and on.
I'll answer both.
None of your damn business.
Only a Korean netizen would get so riled up over the smallest perceived slight.
Exactly what I thought. Your lack of answer speaks volumes.
Go ahead and keep on making unwarranted assumptions.
You just think that anybody supporting Korea is a netizen. You have no idea what you're talking about yo.
AK,
I have worked in two universities in Korea. The system here, I'm afraid to say, is usually appalling.
I can go through a thousand examples of the incompetency of the university system here as well as rant about the inabilities of students here to take control of their own learning, but you know what? I can't be bothered. I've been rammed down too many times by my superiors asking me to assign grades to students I've never seen or heard of and told to follow rules which I then find out, that actually, I'm not supposed to follow because this would result in student drop outs and lost money for the school.
I honestly wouldn't say this unless I truly believed it. There are lots of good things about your country (low crime, high tech industries, great customer service), but mate, your uni system ain't one of 'em. Accept it like a man. Feel the pain while you breath in the acceptance of the epic, epic failure you have fostered within your university system.
@AK
Are you a teacher in a Korean University?
Another thing that completely boggles my mind is the way that unis unofficially or semificially(as it always seems to be here) expect students who've worked a job full time throughout their final year, have never been to class and often have not turned up for examinations or submitted assignments to be passed.
I mean, the one thing I knew was that when I went to university, I would be required to go to university and do inconvenient stuff such as course work and examinations.
AK I would ask you: Have you ever taught at a Korean university?
Mate, a lot of us have. The way I'm describing the system here, I'm really holding back about what I actually think in order to be relatively polite. I know that virtually all the foreign university staff that I know think the same way.
You seem to be intent to bring in nationalism as a form of argument along with an ironic henchman of cultural relativism. But that isn't going to cut it with those who've worked on the floor and know the reality of this system. It isn't right, it's corrupt, it's too influenced by money and it needs fixing by people like you (Koreans) who are actually listened to, unlike us, the invisible metic workers.
The Korean chairman of my last English department who studied in California talked about this problem with me and admitted that the university system here is in a dire condition. It's not just us waegys who think this, trust me. I feel like your argument is simply a nationalistic reaction to us 'uppity' foreigners daring to say what we see and experience each and every day in this ludicrous further education system. Sorry, but we see it and will talk about it.
What's so funny BIT, is that you don't even know me. However, you and others just ASSUME that I'm a Korean or a frenzied Korean netizen only because I say things in favor of Korea. Look, you bring up valid points but it also smells like arrogance and I'm quite glad that people like you aren't working here anymore.
The thing is, that waegooks (not waygooks btw) always compare the uni system here with the system in the West. So if something doesn't go along the way it happens as it does in the West, then boom! Korea is somehow screwing it all up.
What I'm trying to say is that to say that a Korean university education is "worthless" as one puts it and to lump all Korean universities into one category is arrogant and presumptuous. Sure, there are probably many problems in the system. But there are many good things as well. So many hard-working well-deserved Korean students go to great universities here. To smugly believe that they all are some droning robots that don't know how think for themselves is an exaggeration. Everything you and others do is COMPARE the Korean way of thinking relative to the way it is in the West when that is not the way to evaluate it. You should evaluate it in context.
And once again, I ask, how well is your Korean? Are you fluent in the language? How long did you stay in Korea? More than 10 years?
On a parting note, I'm pretty sure you have come across Ask A Korean's blog if you have stayed in touch with the K-blogosphere and you have probably read it. If not, you can read through it your first time. I would like to refer you to an article that I believe most expats should read the moment they set foot in Korea or think about setting foot in Korea.
http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2008/07/why-do-expats-in-korea-complain-so-much.html
unis unofficially or semificially expect students who've worked a job full time throughout their final year, have never been to class and often have not turned up for examinations or submitted assignments to be passed.
I've gotten around this BS to my satisfaction. I simply curve the grades in such a way that the students I've never seen pass, but are at the bottom of the bell. The students who come to class, even if they are terrible, deserve higher grades than students who never show.
My uni standardizes the grades these students get: a minimum 16/20 for attendance (even thought they never came once), minimum 12/20 for homework (even though they never did a one), and minimum 70% on exams (even if they didn't write it). I make sure all the students who DID attend all get scored higher than those minimums (the absentees, under the curve, end up with Ds... a pass it is).
My students LOVE it when there are several students in my class who don't show up. They know they are guaranteed a nice bump in their grade for simply doing the work.
Korea is the only country in world history to rise at such an INCREDIBLE rate. Everyone knows that at all. You can't get that by just rote memorization and lack of critical thinking.
You can't? Wonderful complexity can come from following simple rules. Other than merely asserting the truth of your claim, I wonder how you back it up.
That is such a common misconception of Korea. Just casting Koreans as some type of lemming without any individual creativity.
If it's that easy to just follow simple rules, either other nations are incredibly stupid/lazy or there must be more it than just following rules. Koreans, led by international aid and an extremely hard-working educated workforce built this country up from the ground up in a time never seen before in world history. Global corporations come from this tiny strip of land. Just by following simple rules? Oh Please.
@AK
Are you working at a university in Korea?
"Korean uni education is essentially worthless."
I think this would be more accurately stated as "a Korean university degree is essentially meaningless."
When Korean universities hand out degrees without requiring any proof of achievement, they undermine themselves.
AK can try the cultural relative argument as much as he wants, but wouldn't he want to see a doctor who had been given a license to practise because of his knowledge and aptitude, not because he whined/manipulated/drank with a professor?
A Korean university education is what you make it. Some students want to learn, and they benefit. Some students just want to do the minimum, and a Korean university places that minimum at a barely detectable level.
The level of ignorance here is quite sickening.
First off @ Fattycat, I used to work for a uni. here
Kermo, you are guilty as well of generalizing. How can you lump all Korean universities together? Have you been to all of them? Have you studied the language?
I want to ask everyone who is commenting here. How many can read, write, understand, and speak Korean reasonably well and by that I mean have a meaningful conversation with a Korean (not just ordering food or saying how much is that)? How long have you been/stayed in the country?
It is so imperative to learn the language because that is how one truly learns the culture. Without having a solid grasp of the language, one cannot truly fully understand the nuances of how people feel and think.
I want to leave you with what The Korean wrote on his blog post. You should be familiar with his blog. It is greatly informative and well-written.
"Everything in Korea that appears odd to expats has its own logic, and once explained (as the Korean tries to do in this blog,) they are completely understandable and not very odd after all. But because expats never talk to the people responsible for creating such logic, (it is, after all, people in their 40s through 60s who run the country,) the oddities continue to remain incomprehensible. And instead of coming to an understanding, expats go on with their complaining."
- The Korean
@AK
"used to work for a uni. here"
When and for how long?
A year ago for a year.
Then what you're aying is, practically no experience at all. And even then with only ONE university.
So how did you become such an expert on Korean post-secondary education, such that you can say the rest of us are ignorant?
I can say for certain, I have far more years at this level than you, and you don't know what you're talking about.
Haha.
Darth, how long have you been/stayed in Korea?
How well can you read, write, understand, speak Korean? Reasonably well? Can you hold a meaningful conversation in it?
If yes, great. If not, you are not able to completely understand and criticize the system.
It's not about the experience one has in teaching. It's about the experience one has in dealing in Korea.
Like I said, read this if you haven't yet.
http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2008/07/why-do-expats-in-korea-complain-so-much.html
Why is it so much fun to engage with the most intractable, illogical people?
AK, I've been here for more than five years. I teach at a college, and my boyfriend teaches Ewha. I have been in touch with my uni instructors from institutions around the country, and so I'm not extrapolating-- I'm summarizing.
I've heard the same thing from Korean people. For example, one of my adult students told me that after repeated failing in law school, he whined and begged his prof into passing him.
Correspondingly, Korean universities are ranked quite poorly on the international scale. There are Chinese and Japanese universities in the top 100, but no Korean schools.
When I object to the way these colleges are run, it's not because I haven't read enough "AskaKorean" or because I'm simply "complaining. I value education, I've worked for my own education, and it offends me when a place that calls itself an institute of higher learning rewards indifference and whining instead.
I've figured this guy out. Let's look at the clues....Not Korean. Claims expats complain too much. Asks people if they speak the language while discussing something unrelated. Makes assumptions and then accuses others of making assumptions.
This is David Thiessen (aka Archaeologist). He's a well-known troll at the KT message boards and dozens of other K-blogs. He's been banned from the Hub of Sparkle for trolling.
I recognize the writing style and the smug feeling of superiority. Go back to the KT, troll.
p.s. yes, I do have meaningful conversations in Korean, although sleeping in class and leaving blank answers on the exam doesn't take much translation.
p.p.s. we haven't even started discussing Korean attitudes toward cheating...
Kermo, you are guilty of making gross generalizations. You are a disgrace to the teaching profession if you truly believe so. Why are you still here then?
Matt - You have no idea what you're talking about either. How well do you speak, write, read Korean?
Wow, a few days away from the computer and already a lot to respond to among these two posts.
I'll start by saying the personal attacks need to stop. Respond to the issues, not to each other. Any more of this bickering and comments will be moderated or turned off. First and last warning in this thread.
Douglas: That's some good advice. I admit I haven't taught in a Korean university, but if the stuff I hear from friends, from internet people, and from my fiance are to be trusted, it simply isn't the same as back home. In fact, I don't think it's even as rigorous as middle school. Expecting students to complete homework, come to class, or prepare for exams is simply naive, and from what I've read at least, trying to force it will only lead to headaches for you and friction between your bosses.
I wonder, though, how much rubber-stamping goes on among western universities with regard to foreign students. At my own alma mater---a decent but unreknowned uni in rural Pennsylvania (IUP)---there were loads of foreign students, including 80+ Koreans. Talking with some of them in the TESOL program, I wondered how they got by. They told me they didn't understand the material in class, they demonstrated their English was not that good, they were unaccustomed to the workload, and they had never written essays before. As a former writing center tutor in uni, I'm perfectly aware that many students---domestic and foreign---don't know about academic writing and turn out awful essays before they're shown what to do. But I didn't realize people could get to an MA program in the US without knowing how to write in English. I used to tutor my neighbor, a thirtysomething schoolteacher from Jeju, and would proofread her stuff. Not only didn't she know how to organize essays, but she didn't understand the material in the books and journals, and often she'd simply lift entire passages and put them in her essay. I lost touch with her after I graduated, but she eventually earned her MA.
Puffin Watch and Mike: I know attendance was mandatory in my classes in university, and that usually three absences meant loss of a letter grade. For upper-level classes at least. For big classes such as Freshman Sociology or whatever, there was no way to take attendance, and provided you turned in all the work and took all the tests, you earnred whatever grade you earned.
Kermo: I like this: "When Korean universities hand out degrees without requiring any proof of achievement, they undermine themselves"
AK, I think a lot of your comments are way off the mark, and you must be arguing for the sake of arguing.
"Korean students are incredibly gifted and work tremendously hard. Everyone knows that."
I have no doubt some are and some do. But all the evidence here, among people who are actually in Korean universities, is to the contrary.
I'll thank you for leaving off more plugs of "Ask A Korean." We've all read that . . . a year ago, when it was timely. We don't need any more lessons from Koreans considering themselves authorities by virtue of being Korean.
Brian, have you taken a look at your blog? Most of the stuff you write tends towards the negative.
I think you yourself are guilty as well of making gross generalizations.
What have I said that is exactly off the mark? I have portrayed an objective display.
Let me ask you Brian as well. How well do you converse in the language? Can you understand the nuances and ways things work here?
Look, what I'm saying is not that the system is perfect or even great. What I'm saying is that it is unfair to grossly generalize the college education system here. Yes, there are many flaws. But just as there are many flaws, there many great things as well. What you are exaggerating or trying to imply is that most students don't deserve what they get.
You are trying to say that most students just slack off and most Korean college students are just slackers. That is truly an arrogant assumption. Yes, COMPARED to the way it works in the West, yes that may be true. But you have to evaluate IN CONTEXT.
Rather, than most slacking off, I would say those that do are in the minority as opposed to the majority.
And it makes sense considering that in Korea, it is the journey to gain acceptance to university that is the struggle rather than graduating from university. Whereas in America at least, graduating from high school is a joke and graduating from university is more of a journey.
To simply dismiss me and assume that I am an ignorant expat or just a Korean who believes he is automatically an authority on all things Korean is ludicrous and is the true meaning of snobbery.
I would bet that most Americans would chide any Korean that criticizes things about America if they can't even express it English.
So why not express yourselves in Korean? That's the point, isn't it? If you want to change the educational system, why not make a poignant argument in Korean? Oh wait, you can't? and how long have you invested your time here?
I think it's pretty selective of you to think this blog is primarily negative. Furthermore, let's knock off the "you're generalizing" talk, because clearly you're generalizing when you generalize that other people are generalizing. Cite some examples or articles if you want to get out of the rut. Otherwise you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
You're right that it would be better served to argue such things in Korean. (You're more than welcome to start, AK, if you can). I do regret not spending more time studying Korean, and wonder if it would have been better to set aside a year to do nothing but study Korean at a local university.
The language barrier is perhaps the biggest obstacle to fitting in here, and this barrier works both ways. We've seen that "English teachers" from Korean universities graduate without being proficient in the language.
There is a big difference in how universities do things here and in the US (for example). It's not appropriate to call these things "right" or "wrong" because that's relative.
But, foreign professors do need to be aware of these differences when they get here, and that university education doesn't mean the same thing here as back home. After all, grade school here is more rigorous than what I went through back in the US. That's not to say American students don't work hard, or don't have pressures of their own, it's just that the experience is different. Nothing right or wrong about that, and both sides could learn a little from each other. After all the stress of middle school and high school---whether it's actually worth it is another matter---who can blame Korean college students for taking time off to actually look up from their books?
But clearly there has been little incentive to study hard in university when grades are negotiable, when attendance isn't compulsory, and when classes are more a social function than a lesson. People aren't generalizing about Korean education when they're citing all their examples from their own experiences, and clearly there's enough there to make the point.
People also have cause to wonder about these students when they enter foreign schools. If I'm an admissions director and I have a Korean student's application in front of me, how do I know that his or her grades mean anything? How do I know a degree in English was actually earned? How do I know this test score actually reflects the student's ability to use the language and survive in a foreign school?
It would be useful to hear from professors of subjects other than English, but I doubt we will. We know how little native speaker English teacher classes are valued, so it's not surprising that people are cutting those classes or making excuses to get out of them. It should be no surprise that there's little enthusiasm for university English considering how these students have been conditioned to view English and its native speakers in grade school.
Well-written Brian.
However, are you implying I'm the only one on here generalizing? If you think so, you should look again.
- Douglas says, "realize that a Korean uni education is essentially worthless"
- Matt says, "Only a Korean netizen would get so riled up over the smallest perceived slight."
- Bit says, "It isn't right, it's corrupt, it's too influenced by money and it needs fixing by people like you (Koreans) who are actually listened to, unlike us, the invisible metic workers."
- Kermo says, "Some students just want to do the minimum, and a Korean university places that minimum at a barely detectable level."
- Darth says, "I have far more years at this level than you, and you don't know what you're talking about."
- Kermo says, "I've heard the same thing from Korean people. For example, one of my adult students told me that after repeated failing in law school, he whined and begged his prof into passing him." (oh yeah, and Kermo it may offend you that you worked for your education. Are you saying that most Koreans don't work for their education. If you think so, that is so disrespectful and a slap in the face of all the hard-working high school students and college students who have done probably more work in high school than you ever did in high school/uni combined)
- Kermo also says, "we haven't even started discussing Korean attitudes toward cheating" (you disgust me)
If you don't think these are GROSSLY exaggerated generalizations, then there is something wrong with you.
You know what's so funny is that if you say anything to go against expats once they complain about Korea, it's so easy for them to take the 1)nationalist route 2)getting easily defensive ... so in some ways, they are exactly doing what they accuse Koreans of being like..go figure
@ AK "If you don't think these are GROSSLY exaggerated generalizations, then there is something wrong with you."
Some of those look like assumptions and accusations to me ;)
So are you saying those weren't gross generalizations. All I'm doing is pointing out those gross generalizations to the people that were saying I was generalizing. The people here were the first ones to generalize, not me. lol.
Brian - I'm a professor of a subject other than English.
This is my general impression of Korean university students:
They are a mixed bag. Some are hard-working and studious and are capable of self-motivating, and even take pains to motivate their friends. They always sit up front in class, listen attentively, occasionally ask questions, and always do their homework.
They are the minority though. Most students do the barest minimum they need to do to pass. Like uni students the world over, they are in the process of receiving an academic education but also a social education and an induction into playing the game of 'work' and 'hierarchy', and all the clumsy tricks that go with it. As such, they do try to see what they can get away with. And their minds are not exactly focused on their study. I was the same for most of my university career. What I have definitely noticed though is that rather than getting more serious as they progress through the system, they actually seem to become more feckless, like they know that the system is shoddy and not to be taken seriously. This is unfortunate.
A definite disadvantage of Korean universities is the fact that they seem to be caught in a buyers' market, whereby keeping the students happy (and therefore paying their tuition) is more important than academic rigour and fair grading. Many universities also use relative grading systems that make a mockery of the hard work put in by more assiduous students. I've had to pass students whom I know have not learnt a single solitary thing in my class, just because I can only fail a small percentage (and that percentage is usually swallowed up by the regular absentees).
So all-in-all, Korean universities, and by extension, Korean university students, have many of the problems typical to territory, and one or two that are quite uniquely Korean. Things'll get better, I'm sure, once Korean academia engages more thoroughly with the rest of the world and sees where its own house needs putting in order.
- Darth says, "I have far more years at this level than you, and you don't know what you're talking about."
Can you explain to me how that is a "GROSSLY exaggerated generalization"? You admit to having only one year at the Korean post-secondary level, and I have far more experience than that, both as a teacher of English and as a teacher of a non-language major.
I think it's fair to say, and NOT a generalization, that I have a bit more knowledge about the inner workings and policies of Korean universities than you simply by being in the system and working with various levels of administrators for much longer.
And while there are a few negative generalizations (which you have pointed out several times), they are closer to the truth than the generalizations you make about how GREAT these same universities and students are.
@stevie bee, you hit the nail on the head. Adding to what you said are attitudes towards cheating/plagiarism being by and large "acceptable" (or at the very least, turning a blind eye to it, and it going unpunished), and various policies of uni departments that run counter to education (giving students passing grades--sometimes as high as a B--who never once attended class, to name one glaring example).
Thankfully those things are slowly changing, too, especially in my particular department. Unfortunately, not all departments on my campus are following our lead; teachers across campus are still complaining about the same problems I dealt with 5 years ago. No consistency even on the same campus.
Plenty of problems with post-secondary education (here and in any country), but compare it to, say, 10 years ago and it's FAR better in Korea than it was. Back then, you may as well have given students their diplomas during Freshman Orientation for all the edumacation that got accomplished over the following 4 years.
In Korea, it's just about getting IN to college that is the most important part. And there's nothing wrong with that. In America, it's more about doing well in college. And there's nothing wrong with that either.
Work hard in high school, gain admission, relax relatively = Korea
Relax relatively in high school, gain admission, work hard in college = US
Just difference of styles. No better, no worse. An American would probably laugh at the college system here and a Korean would probably laugh at the public school educational system in America. Of course, systems have flaws everywhere. Nothing is perfect. Just talking relative to one's culture.
It is a problem though when you have to go overseas to get a higher education that will get you places. It means that only the middle and upper middle class are truly upwardly mobile. And it's very telling of the general attitude towards education even within academia - the focus is on gaining admission to expensive and reputable schools, rather than what you actually achieve there. There is far too much regard paid to names and none to actual achievement. It's not really considered possible that one could lead their own education and use their professors merely to guide their research. It is something that will seriously hold Korea back unless there is a sea change in the culture.
Darth, you seem to forget that I didn't say everyone was great, all universities were great. I'm not the first person to start generalizing here. But hey, if others want to start the generalizing, I'll come to play that game too. Darth, you may have been a teacher longer here. But let me ask you, how much of the time do you communicate in Korean, write in Korean with your colleagues, bosses, and students? Once again, I'm not talking about a simple hello and bye and asking how the weather is. I'm talking about real issues in Korean dialogue. So while you may have some nice points, to get the full picture you MUST be able to communicate in Korean to get the whole picture.
Could you imagine a Korean ranting and raving in America to Americans without any knowledge of English? I'm most would say you don't have a clue what you're talking about crazy man/woman!
@Stevie Bee, I've gone through some of your old posts and it seems like you were a hagwon instructor before and now you call yourself a professor. What is your doctorate in or do you have a Masters? You have valid points as well probably from your own experience. But are you telling me the students who do go abroad can't hack it? Cuz I think you'd be surprised then. Look at how many Koreans there are in prestigious universities all across the world. In fact, there used to be a running joke that there were too many Kims at Harvard, it got confusing. How about all SKY university grads who are leaders here and not being handicapped at all by their supposed "lack of college education". Sure, not all of them leaders. I'm not saying that. But lots of them are. They are at the forefront at leading the charge of Korea from dirt poor to a developed nation. Look at the university lists @ Berkeley, UCLA, Wharton, Columbia. And these aren't just the rich kids either. You'd be surprised. Yes, these kids with that same high school background, who graduated from university in Korea. Look at how many Korean students are studying there after studying their asses off. Look at the student registry. Personally, I know so many of them. So to just lump all these studious students that are some of the brightest minds you will find is a disgrace.
Let me say it again, I'm NOT saying that ALL Korean students are great and the best there are. No, I'm not. But what I am saying is that things are being grossly exaggerated. Sure, most students just want to slack and pass. Sure, they may not deserve to pass. But it still doesn't take away from the fact there are thousands upon thousands of so many DESERVING students who put in the work, the time, who have diligent parents, who worked so hard. I have seen the blood, sweat, and tears these students have put in. For you to cheapen their success and abilities is a personal affront to myself.
||That is such a common misconception of Korea. Just casting Koreans as some type of lemming without any individual creativity.
If it's that easy to just follow simple rules, either other nations are incredibly stupid/lazy or there must be more it than just following rules. Koreans, led by international aid and an extremely hard-working educated workforce built this country up from the ground up in a time never seen before in world history. Global corporations come from this tiny strip of land. Just by following simple rules? Oh Please.||
Again you return with an assertion. Personal incredulity does not equal support for your claim. You don't consider the possibility Koreans simply just took a development model template (ie the one Japan evolved) and did a good job of following the template. The lemming comment is a strawman of your own creation.
I'm not saying that is *the* explanation but you should examine your own major premise.
I remember back in the early 1990s when Japan was wiping the floor with North America in the car market. People attributed all kinds of things to Japanese culture and management practice for the success of Japan. But at the end of the day, it was about labor costs advantages, new plants with robots, and a younger work force without the drag of health benefits.
AK - I'm not saying that Korean students can't hack overseas colleges. In fact, I didn't even imply it. You seem to be defending points that haven't even been raised. What I DID say, and what you have just proven, is that there is a culture in Korean education of the name of the university being far more important that what is actually achieved there. That there are many Koreans in American universities doesn't necessarily prove anything in itself. It's an overworn truth of higher education these days that most universities couldn't run without the income supplied by a sizable percentage of overseas students. When Koreans are keen to come, and the universities are keen to have them, then of course there will be many Kims on the rolls. I'm not saying that the Korean students aren't there on their own merits, but the fact that they are there doesn't necessarily prove anything good or bad about Korean higher education. It just seems a shame that the money that is sent to the US and UK for higher education isn't spent on higher education right here in Korea. It's unfortunate that Korean PhDs aren't nearly as valued here as British or American PhDs are.
That's why I asked if that is what you implied. LOL.
and YES, there is too much emphasis on the name of the school rather than the achievement made at said school.
The success of these students proves that you can't just slum together all Korean college students into one block. That there are many things they do learn and get from the higher education system here that enables them to succeed in their careers.
"Work hard in high school, gain admission, relax relatively = Korea
Relax relatively in high school, gain admission, work hard in college = US
Just difference of styles. No better, no worse."
Really? High school level education in my experience is still lower level work in Korea and in North America.
Perhaps Americans are slacking off in highschool. I'm not American. I've never taught there so I cant say. But I would guess that highschool material world wide is less advanced. So, theoretically, wouldnt slacking off in University when the material is more advanced put Koreans at a disadvantage internationally?
Not necessarily. Even a university education these days is sort of a joke considering how easy it is to graduate even from a college in America. The stuff we learn isn't that hard. Granted, there are some tough majors and people have to study somewhat. But for one, the mathematics done in high school in Korea is much more advanced than the math taught in American high schools.
Very interesting post, Brian.
I don't think that Korean attitudes toward University education are the real issue here; every culture is entitled to its own approach to education, and NSETs are hired not to change that approach, but to follow it.
But THAT'S the real issue: NSETs (seemingly at every level of education) are never actually briefed on the Korean approach to education. They're left to figure it out for themselves, gradually, often through a series of frustrating incidents and confrontations.
The solution seems simple: employers and/or recruiters should brief NSETs on the Korean approach to education, and on what's expected of the teacher (for example, that they're not there to fail students), BEFORE a contract is signed. Not only would this help to prepare employees to do the job they're expected to do, it would also give the job-hunters a better idea of whether or not teaching in Korea is actually something they want to do (likely decreasing the number of teachers who quit early or pull a midnight runner).
Darth, you may have been a teacher longer here. But let me ask you, how much of the time do you communicate in Korean, write in Korean with your colleagues, bosses, and students?
All the time outside of class. Inside the classroom/my office is English. Outside of those two locations is Korean. Enough that I can follow and participate in staff meetings and staff dinners with my colleagues and department president, and communicate with the office staff, none of whom speak any English.
So yes, I do in fact know what I'm talking about.
So do I. What is your PhD in?
Some interesting thoughts here, thank you for your contributions.
AK, I think you've made your point. Many times.
Let's let people debate the issues in the post rather than debating other people. From here on out any other crap will get deleted.
AK:
I see you are still quoting me...
Why do you think there are so many people arguing against you?
Is it because we are all racist bastards, or is it because we have worked in universities and seen the problems first hand?
You say my quote was a generalisation. All institutions have institutional patterns, so it's perfectly reasonable to discuss them in general terms, as they are by their very definition, general.
Bit, I'm too tired to address you. You, yourself assumed things about me which you have no idea about just because I post comments contrary to others.
Perhaps one of the problems is that you and others are judging Korean universities by western standards. And I don't think that is necessarily the right standard. Yes, they want international recognition and blah blah blah, but that doesn't mean everything has to be Western to be ideal. Once again, like I've said many times, there are many problems and many good things as well. Just being exaggerated. End of story. Tired now. Let's move on now.
Well, AK, seeing as the modern research university is essentially a Western concept, and seeing as Korean universities are based almost entirely on the American university system, it seems somewhat necessary that Korean universities be held to Western ideals.
I'm still boggling at the notion that not attending lectures or writing exams should be given the same academic consideration as actually participating in the course.
My parents are both profs in the West, and Asian students often end up way over their heads in their classes. One student enrolled in my dad's Asian History class, then handed in a Rolling Stones article on the Wu Tang Clan in lieu of an original essay. Another student printed material directly off Encarta (didn't even bother to copy and paste.)
Maybe they "graduated" from a college like where I teach, where it is a struggle to find textbooks that are simple enough for them to understand, because there are no academic requirements for admission. Evidently, all that hard work in high school didn't pay off too well, because few of them can write a simple sentence in any recognizable tense.
Here's an example from my last set of finals:
This chapter was on connectors, like "so did I," and "he hasn't either."
>
A. Do you and your boyfriend like shopping in Gangnam?
B. I've never been to Gangnam, and ___HAPPY SHOPPING BOYFRIEND!_____ .
If Korean universities are not for learning, as AK suggests (since all the important stuff was covered in high school) then what on earth are they for? Seems like a giant waste of time and money.
Then again, AK is tired and would like us all to stop talking about this, so maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all.
Go read A Geek in Korea's latest:
http://blog.torgodevil.com/archives/2299
Stevie Bee, your point exactly illustrates my point and what I find to be somewhat arrogant. Just because A is based on B doesn't meant that A has to be just like B. Just because Korean unis use things based on B doesn't mean Korea has to follow and do everything the way it is done in America. Korea has their own way. I've said that countless times.
American pizza is based upon the concept of Italian pizza from Naples. So should American pizza be held to the ideals of Neapolitan pizza? Taiwanese health care is based on the concept of healthcare in Britain, Germany, Switzerland, Japan so should they be held to the healthcare standards in all those countries? Should things run the way they run in those countries? No. There are so many examples of where things were influenced and based on other things and where it was thereafter mixed and adapted to fit their own culture in their own way.
Now, I would really like to move on if you don't mind. Thx.
Brian, thanks for that link. I remember the days where I was young, fresh and idealistic. Now I just sing a sad song about what a lying liar I am as I approve the totally fraudulent final grades.
If Korean universities want to pass people who do nothing at all, then I wish they would adjust their computer software so that when I enter "32%" it wouldn't automatically come up as an F. No matter how easy I make the classes, I always have to go through the class list, sprinkling imaginary bonus marks here and there until I get a reasonable curve.
p.s. Brian, I take it that you haven't closed the comments section yet, so we're still allowed to talk about this?
Kermo aka Andrea Eckermann, when did I ever say Korean universities are not for learning? I said that is relatively more relaxed and carefree than a high school environment in Korea. I have to got to say you are the queen of exaggeration and generalization. You absolutely disgust me in some ways hows you generalize Asian students. You generalize Asian students based upon on what some Asian students did. Other students that weren't Asian do the same thing as well. It has nothing to do with their race. It's just what some misinformed students did. *sigh* I'm sure you're a decent person and all, but the way you look down your nose and generalize Asian students into one group is flat out offensive. Good riddance that you have left or are leaving Korea.
Yeah, you can still comment on it. I've only closed a couple of threads, when they've been hit by spammers or ruined by trolls.
AK, take a rest. Anything else out of you on this thread will be deleted.
"Good riddance that you have left or are leaving Korea."
I told you before, told everyone before, no more personal attacks.
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