This banner is hanging near one of my schools. Sorry for the poor quality of my cell phone pictures; it says:
Intensive Control Period of Foreigners' Illegal Extracurricular Work For Forced Repatriation
[원어민 불법 과외 적발시 본국 강제소환 집중단속기간]
And there are telephone numbers for the Yosu Immigration Office, the Suncheon Office of Education, and the Suncheon Association of Hakwon (순천학원연합회). It goes without saying that you should always be careful of whom you let talk you into giving private lessons, because word gets around, and even in my teachers' office my colleagues talk about who's teaching their children on the side. You should be especially wary of strangers in the area approaching you out of the blue, as happens pretty much all the time.
51 comments:
Since leaving the hagwon scene, I haven't really had that many offers and I prefer it that way.
Still, I am glad they took the time and money to print up such a neat sign. I'm sure it will make a big difference.
Any thoughts as to why they hung it where they did?
No, not sure why it's there. There are some apartment buildings and schools in the area, but there are apartments and schools all over the place, sans sign. Most of the foreign English teachers in Suncheon live in the same complex, but there's no sign here, either.
It goes without saying that you should always be careful of whom you let talk you into giving private lessons, because word gets around, and even in my teachers' office my colleagues talk about who's teaching their children on the side.
How about "it goes without saying you shouldn't knowingly break the law by giving private lessons if you're not legally authorized to do so"?
If you're here on an E2, you've got your housing covered and probably enough pocket money to save. Why not use that extra time to enrich yourself in ways that aren't illegal? Travel, study, language learning, etc. Maybe get government approval for a "second job" and teach some orphan kids or something?
Funny how some English teaching might prevent poorly constructed wording on banners.
Also is the banner from Immigration? I thought they were supposed to put their name and logo on stuff. And why put he Immigration phone numbers in English?
Smells like anti-English Spectrum types baiting foreigners into dobbing in their dickhead Canadian co-workers to me!
"Intensive Control Period of Foreigners' Illegal Extracurricular Work For Forced Repatriation"
It's interesting how it is assumed that this is aimed at E2 visa holding teachers. Does it say that anywhere on the sign?
Remember F3 dependant visa holders, tourist visa and some student visa holders arent allowed to work in this country while here and must rely on their savings.
There have also been alot of crack downs on migrant workers who have been trying to pick up extra hours because their factories, farms etc dont have alot of work these days.
"Also is the banner from Immigration?"
I doubt it. My guess is it's from the hagwon association, especially since they have their phone number listed. Immigration doesn't usually work with hagwon associations.
At least they aren't offering a bounty like the Daejeon Hagwon Association douchebags did with their "We're watching you!" campaign.
I'm trying to think of another country I've been in where tutoring was illegal. While Kushibo makes a good point about just not breaking the law, it's a pretty stupid law. It's a racist law. And all things considered, the only people who lose out are hagwon owners, who are often stupid and racist themselves (never mind exploitative, money grubbing fuckwits with no business sense and even less moral fibre), begging the question why this sort of legislation was ever tabled. Seriously, was there a period where so many illegal tutors were rampaging about Korea that young Koreans were actually able to speak English, read foreign media and think for themselves? I can see why that would upset certain people.
Or conversely, is there no 'buyer beware' concept in Korea? I'm pretty sure there is. And since tutoring can't be contractual, it's not like a family couldn't decide to discontinue the services of a poorly performing tutor.
It all stinks of evilry to me, and I have a hard time caring about Korean laws when they so often work against the interests of non-korean workers.
Kushibo does make a good point.
From what I gather the problem with tutoring is that it gives rich kids an advantage, so that's why both hagwon and tutoring (by Koreans) were outlawed a while back. Add that tradition to modern-day resentment over the high cost of English education and the truths and myths of native speaker teachers, and you'll get crackdowns on English teachers.
I think it is also illegal for Korean PS teachers to tutor on the side, but it's not uncommon. I wonder how many Koreans even realize the consequences for foreigners caught tutoring. I recall a couple years ago my coteacher was approached to do a private, but she said that I should do it instead because it's illegal for Korean teachers to do it. Um, what?
Ooo creepy~
Brian wrote:
From what I gather the problem with tutoring is that it gives rich kids an advantage, so that's why both hagwon and tutoring (by Koreans) were outlawed a while back.
Damn, Brian beat me to it. It is absolutely because expensive private tutoring (and come on, whatever the going hourly rate is, it's out of control) is perceived to give rich kids an edge over poorer families, forcing the middle class and the poor to either go without or to scrape money together to get the same service.
Add that tradition to modern-day resentment over the high cost of English education and the truths and myths of native speaker teachers, and you'll get crackdowns on English teachers.
Crackdowns and other investigations are also done into native Korean teachers who violate the tutoring laws, which have become liberalized in recent years to allow college students to do it as a way of earning a buck.
Presumably the college students would charge less money AND would provide lower-income students who make it to college a chance themselves to make ends meet.
I haven't been keeping up with the changing regulations since I've been in Hawaii.
I think it is also illegal for Korean PS teachers to tutor on the side, but it's not uncommon.
I believe it was when I left Seoul for Hawaii in August 2006, and I know from public school teachers that they do get caught and there are consequences.
I wonder how many Koreans even realize the consequences for foreigners caught tutoring. I recall a couple years ago my coteacher was approached to do a private, but she said that I should do it instead because it's illegal for Korean teachers to do it. Um, what?
I think a lot of Koreans may be ignorant of the laws, but that's probably because they aren't paying attention. There are enough well-publicized crackdowns for people to know something's up.
On the other hand, many Korean citizens have no idea what kind of hoops must be jumped through to get visas and other types of work. I think a common belief is that work visas for Westerners are easy to get (and they are, relatively speaking) and that they permit the visa holder to work wherever they want (which is NOT true for most visa types).
I did contract work for a large corporation that hired many international residents for one-time and continuing part-time work. I had to school my higher-ups on how these things worked, and they decided it was so complicated that they should just make me the go-to person for this. I ended up making dozens of trips to immigration every year.
Anyways, nowadays I think those with most F visas (the F-4 kyopo visa, the spousal visas, etc.) can teach if they aren't violating some other regulation (like being a public school teacher). The Korean government needs to streamline and clarify not just these laws, but a bunch of other laws as well.
I should also add that when "foreigners" get caught working illegally, it's not only the "foreigner" who is punished. Often the fines are significantly higher for the company than for the "teacher."
At the aforementioned company, there was an immigration-related fine of over ten million won involving three Americans and Canadians. The company had to pay all of it and the "foreigners" never paid a dime, since Immigration (as I heard it told) figured it was the company that should have known better, not those individuals.
Nik Trapani wrote:
I'm trying to think of another country I've been in where tutoring was illegal.
My understanding is that it's regulated in Japan as well, but (a) that could be wrong and (b) the rules are more liberal as to what constitutes "okay" part-time work.
While Kushibo makes a good point about just not breaking the law, it's a pretty stupid law.
I'm sorry but that kind of attitude is a big part of what people are complaining about regarding foreigners. You sign documents (usually written into your contract) acknowledging that you will live in South Korea as a law-abiding citizen, but you come here or stay here with every intention of breaking the law because you think it's stupid?
It's a racist law.
How is it a racist law?
If you have a visa that allows only Activity A and you willingly sign onto that contract and that visa, how is it racist for the government to hold you to that agreement?
And all things considered, the only people who lose out are hagwon owners,
And the poorer kids whose parents can't afford the private tutoring, and therefore have a harder time competing for good college spots.
who are often stupid and racist themselves (never mind exploitative, money grubbing fuckwits with no business sense and even less moral fibre),
And your sure that breaking this "stupid law" is not hurting the hagwon owners who are not stupid, racist, exploitative, money-grubbing fuckwits? I've known some decent folks who owned or operated hagwons (including foreigners) and one of their biggest challenges was trying to keep things all together when so many of their teachers and their competition were undermining their honest work by breaking the law. How's that for being a fuckwit.
It all stinks of evilry to me, and I have a hard time caring about Korean laws when they so often work against the interests of non-korean workers.
I really try to avoid telling people "if you don't like it, then leave," but Zhesus H. Christ, if you can't even be bothered to follow the laws of some other country because, then maybe you should get the fuck out.
I wonder if pimping myself out to the highest paying ajumma counts as an extracurricular activity?
Might be time to put my cowboy get-up away for the next few weeks ...
Ben wrote:
I wonder if pimping myself out to the highest paying ajumma counts as an extracurricular activity?
Ben, if you really are doing that, I strongly urge you to stop. You might think that it's okay to do this because you haven't gotten caught so far, but there's actually a very high chance that you will. All it takes is for your ajumma "friend" to piss off someone with a little authority or a big grudge, and — boom — you're being deported and not allowed to re-enter for seven years. It really is that serious.
Look, I know from personal experience it can be tempting. And while I feel fortunate I was able to buy the apartment, the Lexus, the condo in Cheju-do, the guido jewelry, the gaudy leather furniture, the giant-screen TV, the second Lexus when I got bored of the first Lexus's color, upgrades for my real girlfriend, eight Ermenegildo Zegna suits, a Wii for each room, and Bennigan's gift certificates for all my friends, it's really not worth it. I quit after just nine years.
In the end you have to deal with the risk of STDs (if she's cheating, he's cheating), kickbacks to Immigration (often in the form of "services" to the most butt-ugly female working there), and night after night of drinking till dawn.
My advice: do what I did and just pay off your student loans and buy just enough stuff to get a new girlfriend who knows nothing about your former life, and then get yourself a nice desk job.
Really, no matter how appealing they make it seem in the movies, it's a soulless occupation.
Wow.
"booo hooo hooo. I'm a glorified baby sitter who gets paid 1.8million to pay English games with some kids. Its not fair that I cant tutor on the side! It's racist!"
Being a fluent native English speaker from an English speaking country and not being able to even apply for a job because you're not from the "approved" countries like Canada, US, England etc. is racist. (possibly changing)
Not getting hired at a hogwon or getting paid less because or your skin colour is racist. (changing)
Being a migrant worker who is hired to work in agriculture but who isnt allowed to have a part time job during the cold season when they have no work is unfair.
You want more hours? Then apply to a different school. You want more pay? Then get a teaching degree, masters, tofel certificate etc. You have the option unlike many others working here
You have the option unlike many others working her.
Freudian slip, lazzycat? ;)
Wow . . . this is funny . . . I don't think the law is racist (though it does walk a razor's edge in terms of perspective and definitions: if you change the context and application of the law to America and all people who speak Hebrew there'd be international outrage and mass protests and NOBODY would dispute that the law is racist--but hey, in Korea we can ignore that kind of logic, right?) but I do think that it's a ridiculous law when I know of specific incidents of IMMIGRATION OFFICERS getting private lessons from a foreign native teacher--add to this list a police chief, a psychiatrist with a high ranking position in a government department . . . and the list goes on.
The only thing that this law does is allow the rich and elite who pay for private lessons to pretty much "own" their native speaker. And let's be real, it ain't the private tutoring that is the fundamental problem here--it's the freaking testing system that reinforces the multi-generational rich and elite families patrilineal inheritance of wealth and positions within the government and upper echelons of businesses and companies in Korea . . . the HOGWANS are the life blood of this entirely corrupt system--NOT foreign teachers.
Anyways . . . I'm sure more comments will be posted because of Brian's posting--good job Brian!
J
kushibo - I was actually joking about the man-whore thing, I do enough whoring out in my day job to contemplate doing anything of the like outside work.
I feel kind of giddy right now, lol. Brian's actually deleted TWO comments! I'm DYING to know how ridiculously stupid/racist/or . .. ? they must be for them to have been deleted . . . come on Brian, inquiring minds want to know!
J
I didn't delete any comments. It says deleted by author, which means the person who wrote them deleted them. It was because they were double-posts. I think it says "removed by administrator" if I take it down (but usually when I delete trash I also delete the "removed by administrator" message.)
Darn . . . the other idea was so much more exciting, lol.
J
Kushibo:
The law is racist because if my neighbor from my hometown of New York decides to come to Korea, he can tutor with out fear of the immigration police, even though he has no college degree...
why?
because his skin is a different color than mine. his parents are Korean. His grandparents moved to New York back when my (white) grandfather was risking his life battling communists in Incheon.
Since his skin is the right color, he gets an F-2, and is thus exempt from the immigration BS.
Is Korea a free-market, capitalist country, or a backwater, facico-socialist state?
Being a Free-market economy means you don't interfere with the markets by telling two parties they can't enter into an agreement, like tutoring. You only interfere if the market will harm someone (e.g. drugs, murder-for-hire, etc.)
Tutoring doesn't harm anyone.
Also,
I have NO problem with logical regulation of the tutoring market.
But it should not be done by the ministry of immigration.
If you want to create standards for tutors, ok, great...
Create standards that apply to ALL tutors, not just the non-Korean (or non-gyopo) ones. Administer these standards through the ministry of Education.
To have immigration regulate non-Korean tutors, and not the Korean tutors, is unequivocally racist.
Kushibo: I can't really argue with any of your logic there, and so I won't. But I think you're really reading what I wrote the wrong way. In no way did I suggest that one should break the law.
I said 'often' hagwon owners were fuckwits. Which in my limited experience, and anecdotal experience from those I know who have been there for either short periods or years on end, seems to be true in many cases.
It is a stupid law and it's racist. Your argument to the contrary blames the under performance of businesses on foreigners. Which sounds pretty wrong, not to mention anti-free market. I'm pretty sure the glut of 1st and 2nd generation Italians in my town didn't make the Italian program at my school redundant. Nor did the woman up the street who taught me piano put Juilliard out of business.
Also, I neither live in Korea anymore nor work there, so getting out... well, that's done. But thank you for your informed and well meaning suggestion. As an expert on everything, I'm glad you've taken the time to tell me how it is. I apologize if my opinion was wrong and I appreciate you correcting my wrong foreign attitude.
And in regards to anyone who doesn't think it's racist...
It seems to be that any law that deals explicitly with what one can do based on their race (in this case 'non-korean') is racist by definition. If you think I'm wrong, just consider the different visas granted to kyopos. I knew an 19 year old girl from Australia teaching in hagwon outside of Pohang who had barely started university. She was adopted at birth from Korea and brought to Australia, But she can teach in a Hagwon without a degree (this was 2005, don't know if they've changed that law). On the other hand, my friend who teaches English at Yeonsei with 5 years of experience teaching in Korea (3 at the university level), who is a certified teacher in the US can't teach English privately on the side. Smells fishy to me.
and, Thank you matt.
matt wrote:
because his skin is a different color than mine. his parents are Korean. His grandparents moved to New York back when my (white) grandfather was risking his life battling communists in Incheon.
Since his skin is the right color, he gets an F-2, and is thus exempt from the immigration BS.
You have several things wrong, starting with him getting an F-4 visa, not an F-2.
Second, not every person who is ethnically Korean gets an F-4 visa. Specifically, you have to be a former ROK citizen or the descendant of a former ROK citizen. About 10 or 20 percent of kyopo from Western countries do not qualify for the F-4 because their parents or grandparents did not give up their ROK citizenship or because they emigrated from Korea before the existence of the ROK in 1948.
Third, a person who is not ethnically Korean can get an F-x visa when they marry into a ROK citizen family.
In other words, the law favors people with certain family connections to the ROK, irrespective of them being ethnic Korean or not.
Fourth, many of the restrictions on private teaching are related to one's status as a public school teacher. You can have F-4 or F-2 or F-5 tattooed on your ass but it will still be illegal for you to do private tutoring if you hold certain jobs.
I could go on, but I think I already made the case that one's status allowing them to do this or forbidding them from doing this is independent of one being Korean.
For good measure, though, I will mention that with an E-x visa, you are a denizen of Korea, not a citizen, and therefore you do not have the same rights to work wherever you want whenever you want. That is a fairly universally applied concept, even in the United States.
Is Korea a free-market, capitalist country, or a backwater, facico-socialist state?
Being a Free-market economy means you don't interfere with the markets by telling two parties they can't enter into an agreement, like tutoring.
When you come to Hawaii, you tell that to all the Korean, Taiwanese, and Japanese students who would like to work but can't do so legally.
Nik Trapani wrote:
Kushibo: I can't really argue with any of your logic there, and so I won't. But I think you're really reading what I wrote the wrong way. In no way did I suggest that one should break the law.
No, you did not appear to suggest that anyone should break the law. IIRC, Brian was suggesting what people breaking the law should do to avoid detection (aiding and abetting ;) ) and you then appeared to defend those who would do it, hagwon owners being fuckwits and all. At least, that's how I interpreted it.
I think whoever thinks this policy is "racist" does not have all the facts and, in some cases, is assuming reasons for the ban that are quite different from the stated and actual reasons.
It seems to be that any law that deals explicitly with what one can do based on their race (in this case 'non-korean') is racist by definition.
I already addressed this in my response to Matt. You have the fact wrong: not all kyopo can get the coveted F-4 visa and many non-kyopo can get F-x visas that will allow them to freely do outside work.
Not every bad thing that happens to "whitey" or "waygooks" in Korea is because of racism.
Ben wrote:
kushibo - I was actually joking about the man-whore thing,
Um... yeah... so was I.
[kushibo drives away nervously in his second Lexus]
Speaking of illegal behavior, if this is not authorized by Immigration and the telephone number is that of a private party, it may be in violation of ROK laws.
If I were in Korea and I knew the location, I would call Immigration myself and inquire (or go there directly).
The reason I refuse doing privates, and the thing that pops into my mind before the illegality of it, is that I'm just not in the mood to teach after school and on the weekends. Moreover, I think unless the student is committed to learning, I don't think a private tutor once or twice a week would make a big difference. Those parents who force their average middle schooler to go meet a tutor at 50K an hour aren't doing much more than throwing their money away. It's tempting to take that kind of money, and I can appreciate those who strike while the iron's hot---hey, English is a valuable skill, so why not get paid big money to teach it?---though I can't help but think it stealing sometimes.
Anyway, I don't think I was aiding and abetting . . . that much. I just mean I've been asked at the local florist, hospital, post office, eye doctor, and Camto sandwich shop to teach. And while most of those people were friendly, I have no idea who they are, nor do I have any reason to trust them. Maybe there's no reason *not* to trust them, but you always know that parents talk to each other, so pretty soon Minsu's mother will tell all of Minsu's friends' parents about what a nice man Brian is. Pretty soon Brian's guilt-tripped into teaching five more lessons, or maybe somebody gets jealous and phones immigration.
I don't see any reason why foreigners on an E-2---or any other visa---shouldn't be allowed to teach privates. I appreciate the concern about the rich getting richer, so in that case just make it law that tutors and customers/students have to register. There are legal tutors, after all, so just extend those laws to everyone. Hell, even tax the income if necessary. Of course people would go outside that and set up lessons with neighbors or friends or their teachers at school, that's unavoidable, but in that case the customer/student would (theoretically) be 50% responsible for breaking the law, and law-abiding foreigners across the board could get paid to teach the lessons so many parents seem to want.
Admit it, Brian. You've got twelve illegal tutors living in your basement! Confess now and we go easy on you. We'll even let you say good-bye to your girlfriend at the airport. ;)
Ah, you make some good points, but one of the things that anyone must bring to the table if they're going to talk about this is that allowing private tutoring runs counter to the value of egalitarianism that is hard-wired modern Korean society. I'm not saying that it manifests itself well, but it is part of the narrative for many policies, including this one.
Oh, and if you are coming to the table, leave the "this policy is racist" meme at the door, please. (Not directed at you, Brian.)
You have several things wrong, starting with him getting an F-4 visa, not an F-2.
irrelevant. the issue isn't what the visa is called, or who gets it, but the fact that there are 2 sets of standards, dependent upon skin color.
Second, not every person who is ethnically Korean gets an F-4 visa. Specifically, you have to be a former ROK citizen or the descendant of a former ROK citizen. About 10 or 20 percent of kyopo from Western countries do not qualify for the F-4 because their parents or grandparents did not give up their ROK citizenship or because they emigrated from Korea before the existence of the ROK in 1948.
irrelevant
Third, a person who is not ethnically Korean can get an F-x visa when they marry into a ROK citizen family.
irrelevant
In other words, the law favors people with certain family connections to the ROK, irrespective of them being ethnic Korean or not.
false
Again, my grandfather risked his life defending the ROK... He earned a Purple Heart for injuries he sustained here. Can there be a greater 'family connection' then that? My Korean neighbor is connected to Korea via his grandparents, who ran when the ROK was under attack.
I could go on, but I think I already made the case that one's status allowing them to do this or forbidding them from doing this is independent of one being Korean.
You haven't made any kind of point. The rules that apply to the regulation of F-4 or F-2 visa holders apply to me as well. I have 2 sets of regulatory hurdles, because my skin is white.
For good measure, though, I will mention that with an E-x visa, you are a denizen of Korea, not a citizen, and therefore you do not have the same rights to work wherever you want whenever you want. That is a fairly universally applied concept, even in the United States.
When you come to Hawaii, you tell that to all the Korean, Taiwanese, and Japanese students who would like to work but can't do so legally.
ok. now you're saying that
A) everyone else does it so it's ok
B) since the U.S. does it, it's ok
These arguments are intellectually worthless.
Basically you're telling me that 2 (or 50) wrongs make a right.
Did you miss the kindergarten lesson: two wrongs don't make a right.
And besides, the U.S. laws apply to ALL immigrants, regardless of skin color. There isn't a special visa that exempts me from the no-work requirment if I have 'family connections' (e.g. my skin is the right color.)
matt wrote:
the issue isn't what the visa is called, or who gets it, but the fact that there are 2 sets of standards, dependent upon skin color.
They are NOT. Many Koreans with the right "skin color" are denied F-4 visas. And many people with the wrong "skin color" can get other types of F-x visas that allow them to do this work (assuming it isn't illegal for other reasons not related to immigration).
You are WRONG about what the two standards are. It is not Korean or non-Korean, it is about HAVING certain ties versus NOT HAVING certain ties, and being Korean or not being Korean does not determine that.
Again, my grandfather risked his life defending the ROK... He earned a Purple Heart for injuries he sustained here.
I completely agree that Korean War veterans should get special treatment. I think I wrote a letter to one of the English dailies about that back in the late 1990s. There are a few special provisions given to Korean War vets, but none as far as immigration is concerned, I believe.
However, YOU are not a Korean War vet, are you? You're muddying the discussion about the people involved here by bringing up an irrelevant case to the issue of E2s and other E-x's verus F visas.
because my skin is white.
Do you cry snowy tears when you think about horrible you're being treated?
If you marry a ROK national, you will be eligible for a visa status that provides many different opportunities from now. Why? Is it because you've changed "color"? No, it's because you have a family tie that is deemed to be worthy of some form of long-term residency.
My "word verification" is "bra palin." That's kinda funny.
The "this is racist meme"??
That is what were arguing about.
Now you're telling me to leave it at the door.
So my agrument isn't good because it's a meme?
I stand by my assertion that the ministry of immigration has no place regulating what is an educational issue.
Again. My neighbor has no ties to Korea, except his grandparents ran from Korea during the war. He can't speak Korean, he doesn't like kimchi, and he has no college degree. But he IS eligible for the special skin color visa.
Unlike his grandparents who ran away when Korea was in danger, My grandfather ran TO Korea, trying to protect it.
I shouldn't have to marry someone just to get the same rights as him.
My verification is groot..
GROOT GROOT GROOT
So my agrument isn't good because it's a meme?
Huh? It being a meme is simply a statement that it is a common idea spread amongst people, in this case the echo chamber of the K-blogosphere (no offense, Brian). It has nothing to do with its quality or lack therefore. (Some memes are good memes.)
I stand by my assertion that the ministry of immigration has no place regulating what is an educational issue.
Some would argue that it is the business of Immigration to regulate the activities of non-citizens (i.e., immigrants), when the activities are related to their visa status.
and I'm not crying any color tears... just bitching.
You really think Korea isn't a racist place? Don't get me wrong I know I have it good here, but the way Korea treats it's immigrants is problematic.
E-2 visa holders admittedly have less to complain about that ASEAN immigrants, who are treated like dirt here.
If immigration says that I am qualified to teach a hagwon class of 10 kids, where is the logic that says I'm not qualified to teach 1?
Now my verification is toutor... the computer needs a spelling lesson.
But wait, I can't do that, or I'll get deported.
Unlike his grandparents who ran away when Korea was in danger, My grandfather ran TO Korea, trying to protect it.
I don't disagree with you that your grandfather deserves special privileges here.
I have helped a lot of people get F-4 visas. I ran a veritable underground railroad heading to Immigration. Not all of my passengers made it, though.
One guy couldn't get it. Why? His parents kept their Korean citizenship, out of patriotism for Korea. They thought they could live as productive residents in New York (which they did) but keep ROK citizenship to show they were loyal Koreans.
Guess what? That guy couldn't get the F-4, because he wasn't the descendant of former ROK citizens. But here he was living in Korea with his parents who had returned, he was learning Korean, trying to do some good work for some needy Koreans, but no F-4 for him.
Does he deserve it more than your neighbor who is grandson of the runners? I think so. But he couldn't, and this was irrespective of skin color.
I shouldn't have to marry someone just to get the same rights as him.
But the point is that you could, even though you're White.
But the point is that you could, even though you're White.
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So I should be thankful Korea doesn't have Nazi style Miscegenation laws? How modern of Korea!!
Why should decedents of former Korean runners get special treatment, but decedents of Korean War veterans do not????
matt wrote:
You really think Korea isn't a racist place?
I did not say that at all. I see plenty of signs of racism in Korea. But this policy is not racist.
Don't get me wrong I know I have it good here, but the way Korea treats it's immigrants is problematic.
My experiences with Immigration in Korea have generally been 95% good. In contrast with the United States where they have been quite poor.
Having to deal with Immigration sucks, in and of itself, even if Immigration officers are rosy and sweet. Welcome to the world of being a migrant worker.
E-2 visa holders admittedly have less to complain about that ASEAN immigrants, who are treated like dirt here.
Yes.
If immigration says that I am qualified to teach a hagwon class of 10 kids, where is the logic that says I'm not qualified to teach 1?
The logic has already been explained, and it has nothing to do with your "color" because the rules apply to many Koreans as well, including ROK citizens.
Now my verification is toutor... the computer needs a spelling lesson.
Ha ha. Maybe it's a Quebecois compouteur.
Matt, I'm not in complete disagreement with you. I fully agree with you about your grandfather being deserving, but given that who is eligible and who is not eligible is not determined by skin color.
Anyway, I've got errands to run.
You're also missing my point.
Sure not ALL people with Korean skin can get F-4s. Not everyone in the group "Korean skin color" is eligible.
My point is that I should be in the group of "family connection to Korea" group, and I am kept out of it because of my skin color.
I have no illusions about this being not realistic. But I do have a greater connection to Korea then my friend with the cowardly grandparents.
Well, this is a fine howdydoo. Pull the race card and BOOM, everyone gets excited.
I don't think it's really fair to call someone who had the means to survive and used them a coward. I don't know about you, but if Hirohito showed up here with his Taleban-nazi maoists, i would be on the first boat out of here with my family. You say cowardice, I way Darwinism.
And on the flip side, I wouldn't say getting your ass shot off in a foreign country makes you or your descendants any more welcome either. Consider any number of conflicts that shouldn't have been, or in Korea's case, a number of authoritarian governments that survived purely off the nurturing fondle of American cupping.
Having said that, I still think the whole thing is bull shit. Why are qualified people prevented from performing their jobs while 'unqualified' people are grandfathered in? And why is the distinction family-tie based (read:race/nation/descent/whatev)?
It's crap legislation, and I don't buy for one minute the 'poor Hagwon owner' thing. It's a weird protectionism, and it's clearly not working out for the consumer.
Naturally if I were in charge, I would fix everything with a single tensing of my glutes, but that's not the case.
It merely frustrates me that Korean business and government can see its way clear to mine the entire planet for resources (human included) and yet can't seem to figure out that if it wants to be a world player, it might actually have to reconsider the way it deals with the world inside its own borders.
And with that, this has become my most-commented-on post, and in just over 24 hours. Of course I have my reasons to question just how many different people are commenting on this thread, and how many are merely socks and foils, but it's been a good conversation nonetheless.
matt wrote:
Sure not ALL people with Korean skin can get F-4s. Not everyone in the group "Korean skin color" is eligible.
In fact, most overseas Koreans are not eligible for an F-4 visa. Within Western countries the percentage of ineligible Koreans is only 10 to 20%, but in China, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, etc., it is close to 100%.
My point is that I should be in the group of "family connection to Korea" group, and I am kept out of it because of my skin color.
What family do you have in Korea? Your grandfather (who I agree ought to have the right to stay and work in Korea if he so desires) is not in Korea.
Frankly, I think an argument could be made that even the descendants of Korean War vets should have some special privileges (in fact, such things count with some ROK-sponsored scholarships), but the fact that they have not extended residency to veterans' offspring does not mean that it is racist that they allow some visas to do work and not others, especially when you as a White person would be eligible for some of those visas.
Geez, get over it. Not every thing you don't like in Korea is because of "racism." Take a cue from Marmot himself.
Sounds like its time for a marxist revolution. Kyo po' unite!
Sounds like its time for a marxist revolution. Kyo po' unite!
Actually, some ethnic Koreans in China filed a lawsuit, claiming that the legal requirements discriminated based on national origin, and they won.
I forgot what the results were, but I think some changes were made that allowed for more avenues to be open to them, but it wasn't the floodgates they'd hoped.
Awesome. Go Koreans!
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