Dear. Editor, Brian Deutsch
I am a foreign language high school student who tries to read write and speak English and Japanese not to be ignored by people like Peter in your column. Even though I am just a young lady of Korea, I want to criticize some of your points as a citizen of Korea like my fellow Korean Mr. Kim: who put effort into practicing patriotism. I too feel there is a lack of justifying in the naming of the sea. .
First, you insisted that Korea tries to dictate the name of the body of water in English. Your words might be right somehow. We, the Koreans might do ignore the Japanese side. But, first, let’s see the history of East Sea/Sea of Japan. When Japan invaded Korea, they deprived the Korean territory and sovereignty. We call this imperialism. But the ‘Treaty of San Francisco with Japan’ concluded in 1949 which states Korea is an independent country and Japan gives up all the rights of Korea including territory of Korea. But Japan still insists that the East Sea is their own territory, their own sea. The name, Sea of Japan is a legacy of Japan’s imperialism. In addition, because of this arguing, the UN declared one name can not be used, both name should be used in 1994. But the Japanese minister of foreign affairs organized an exclusive team of which the purpose of promoting Sea of Japan. Japan apparently ignored the UN’s decision. Thanks to the Japan’s enthusiastic activity, US SAT textbook say the name of the body of water which separates Japan and Korea is the Sea of Japan. And the three quarters of worldwide maps state that the name of the sea is the Sea of Japan. In this situation, why can’t you mention dictatorship to Japan? Why do you call Mr. Kim’s behavior a dictatorship?
Second, you believed that Koreans can’t speak; write and read English well dare tries to change the English usage. But I think Kim Jang-hoon didn’t try to change just a English usage but worldwide people’s wrong cognition. As I said before, the name of the water is not the Sea of Japan. But many people think it is, and they deserve to know true fact, and Koreans deserve to inform the truth.
Third, I agree with Keith’s opinion which explains the name of the sea can be called differently depending on the country. But Keith’s examples do not fit to the East Sea (Sea of Japan). The French body of water he mentioned is not a politically troubled part of world. People can say whatever they want, but the sea we are arguing about is different. This is in conflict. No maps say that a troubled area belongs in a certain country. No maps say Kashmir in India is Muslim or Hindu because there is religious strife. Maps should mark both names of the body of the water.
I think you were confused between criticism and blame. In your opinion, there is no historical foundation. We call that sheer blame not proper criticism. When you understand the history of Korea, then you can’t downplay Mr. Kim’s effort. Finally, both names of the sea: the East Sea and the Sea of Japan have to be inscribed in the every map. Or Korea and Japan should have a meeting about this sensitive subject and give the sea a new and better name together.
I sent her a response a couple days ago and re-explained a couple points and mentioned where I thought her reply was wrong. A couple big things jumped out at me. For instance, by naming the water "Sea of Japan" we are not saying Japan owns it.
Secondly, she misunderstood Keith's example, though she in turn says that Keith's example doesn't fit Korea and Japan. Here's what he had to say in the original piece:
Keith writes, “Each language has its own names for geographic locations and this should be respected by others. For us English speakers the body of water that lies between Korea, Russia and Japan is called the Sea of Japan. It has always been that way since Commodore Perry opened up Japan (and I assume long before that). The body of water that lies between Britain and France is called the English Channel. The French call it ‘La Manche’ (The Sleeve). I speak French and when I am in France I don’t call it ‘The English Channel’ when speaking French. I call it La Manche. When I speak English, it is called the English Channel, not the Sleeve. I do not upset any French person when I say English Channel when speaking English.”
Keith's point was that when people speak English, regardless of nationality, they call it "The English Channel" and not "La Manche." And when people speak French, regardless of nationality, they call it "La Manche." I'll reiterate that nobody is suggesting the name be switched to 일본해 in Korean. The name is 동해, "East Sea," in Korean, and speakers of Korean regardless of nationality will refer to this water as 동해 in Korean. The same consideration needs to be shown to English speakers, and indeed to speakers of other languages that refer to it as the Sea of Japan in their own languages. I don't recall ever calling the singer a "dictator[ship]," but I find foreigners dictating somebody's language and culture to them to be pretty pushy.
Third, I do think people who have little to no knowledge of English shouldn't stick their noses in our business. If they are so interested in "correcting" English, perhaps they should start in their own country with all the nonsense English on shirts, in music, on textbooks, on advertisements, as company names, and pretty much anywhere else you look in Korea.
You know, if there were a campaign within Korea to call it "East Sea" in English within Korea I'd actually be a little more fine with that, just so long as pressue isn't applied to other countries to change their language or nomenclature. But, well, we've seen that, excuse my yelling, THEY DON'T EVEN CHECK THE MAPS IN KOREA, demonstrating that people are more moved by the idea of getting back at Japan, and providing yet another example of why you shouldn't use a foreign language you clearly don't understand.
Finally, the Sea of Japan isn't a disputed area. The name is disputed by Korea, of course, but not in the world at large. If maps in Korea are interested in listing both names in Korean---they don't of course---or even in English, that's fine, but there is no reason to take the crusade to the world.
I'll leave this here for your consideration, but play nice. I just want to mention, though, that this student seems to be advocating for using both names on maps. I don't agree with that, either, but it's better than what we often get from people who insist it should be only the East Sea, or even the East Sea of Korea. Indeed the men who put the ads in the New York Times and Wall Street Journal say the name should be written East Sea.
There is no Sea of Japan in the world
the ad says.
Tell me it's not haughty, indeed not dictatorial, to, well, dictate to a paper how it should use its language, how it should label its maps.
23 comments:
Wow, you really have to hand it to that girl. I was impressed with what she had to say, in that it was a better formed and articulated perspective than those I hear from people two or three times her age.
Unfortunately for her, the Korean side of this argument is so weak. Simply saying that the status quo is unfair (naming the body of water after the other country) and then offering an equally unfair solution (as the body of water isn't to the east of Japan) doesn't buy you credibility or get you anywhere.
IMO, this is somewhat analogous to the Gulf of Mexico. I have never heard anyone complain about that. Although, the Gulf of America does sound better! :)
Even Wiki describes the sea in question as "marginal."
It's nice to see such a reasoned response to this, from an 11th-grader no less. But as you point out, Brian, her position is actually different from that presented in the newspaper ad in question; she argues for adopting both names, and even mentions Korea and Japan negotiating to find a new name that would be mutually agreeable. Whether you agree with her argument or not, it is a much more reasonable position than that of the newspaper ad, which unilaterally declares that the body of water should be called the East Sea and nothing else.
Since I was mentioned by name, I'd like to add this. I'm NOT saying that we should ignore the opinions of people who are not fluent in English. Having spent 3 years teaching English in Korea, I love to see students really using English to communicate, as this student is doing. Since I'm not fluent in Korean, I have no right to decide how maps should be labelled in Korean, and by the same token, I feel that people who aren't fluent in English have no right to decide how maps should be labelled in English. But I'm open to hearing any opinion that's presented in a reasonable and respectful tone, as this student has done. I hope she continues to do so.
Any good argument should see it from the other side. She never actually sees things from the Japanese side or the side of the rest of the English speaking world.
Peter: I'm glad to see that you are open to hearing opinions on the matter, even if they are from people whose grasp of English isn't the greatest. While I've always thought Brian's logic on the matter was sound, I never did like the attacks on English proficiency---this is a naming dispute, not a dispute on grammar.
It doesn't make your argument any less justified, Brian, I just always cringe a little when I read it.
A valiant effort by Ms. Ha-young, but unfortunately, facts always prevail.
1. The UN made a stance in 2004 to use "Sea of Japan." They stated the decision was not in order to take a stance on the subject, but simply a matter of international convenience.
2. The event of naming neutrality in 1994 that Ms. Ha-young mentions actually took place in 1977. In 1986, in the 4th edition guidelines of the IHO, the sea was named "Sea of Japan" and Korea DID NOT object. A naming dispute was put forward to the UN by Korea in 1992, but was dismissed. In 1995, it was Korea who took a pro-active step to be the first to drop "Sea of Japan" from its official nautical charts.
So, not only has the UN been officially using "Sea of Japan" since 2004, your 1994 incident didn't even take place and it was Korea that went against the UN's stance. Ms. Ha-young's Japanese UN dissension is some pretty hard REVISIONIST history.
3. You can't point to the Treaty of San Francisco to argue validity of ownership for the Sea of Japan in one breathe but then have your countrymen deny it to prove ownership of the Liancourt Rocks in the next. Furthermore, I can't find any evidence (online at least) that Japan had to "give up" the Sea of Japan in the Treaty of San Francisco (even though I don't think EITHER country ever owned 100% of the Sea of Japan in the first place. Otherwise, any foreign national swimming/fishing in the Sea of Japan would be illegally entering a foreign border). Remember, if you're using the argument that the T of SF states the Sea of Japan belongs to Korea, then that also means that the Liancourt Rocks belong to Japan (as the last version of the Treaty places it under Japanese control) and that your countrymen are therefore invading a foreign nation. Oops.
On a side note, I have stated in the past, in the comments section of this blog, that I did believe Korea should have long ago adopted the name of "Sea of Japan" in Korean for the naming of the sea (since Korea is - to the best of my knowledge - the only country in the world that uses the East Sea moniker [and primarily for ethno-centric political reasons]).
That said, after the argument presented concerning The English Channel/La Manche, I can see validity in this particular point of contention. I was in the wrong on that one and retract the statement.
Looks like a very abridged version was published in the Joongang Ilbo today. It's very different than what's printed here:
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2910732
The name of the school is the same, but looks like they changed her name. Dunno. Anyway, I think the version on my site is better.
JS, I don't recall attacking the English proficiency of those creating these ads. But I have said many times, including this post, that I don't think people with limited English skills should be dictating how English is used by English speakers. That doesn't mean somebody like Ha-young, or "Eun-mi," shouldn't be heard on this matter, or that their opinions as "foreigners" aren't worth anything. But there's a difference between writing in to the local paper and taking out ads in the New York Times saying "Error" and trying to force English speakers to change their language.
An interesting off-shoot, and one I thought about bringing up in some other posts, is how this relates to "외국인" and some foreigners' objections to it. You'll here some people really turned off by being called 외국인, but don't know the first thing about the language.
I'll just reprint that letter here:
***
This is about the column “A sea by any other name certainly not as sweet” written by Brian Deutsch on Sept. 15.
I can’t agree with his idea.
First of all, in his idea that the name depends on what language we use, it seems he thinks that calling the name “Sea of Japan” is something natural in English. However, the name of an area is very important when it is directly related to the possession of a certain territory. Actually, the sea area is shared by Korea, Japan and Russia.
If foreigners don’t know the historical background, they are likely to think Japan possesses the sea as its national territory. Isn’t that a problem?
Furthermore, he used the example of La Manche, which is odd to use for this subject.
Actually, La Manche in French means that the strait looks like a sleeve. In the meaning there is no concept of the possession of the concerned area. So, calling it La Manche or the English Channel doesn’t matter.
However, there is a different problem with the East Sea and the Sea of Japan. The latter implies the ownership of the area.
There is so much evidence in official documents of Korean and Chinese history about the East Sea. However, in 1929 Japan made an application to the International Hydrographic Organization unilaterally to call it the Sea of Japan.
Under the rule of Japanese imperialism from 1910, Korea had no sovereignty and right of diplomacy to correct the wrongs.
Now, we suggest that it be called the East Sea, which means the east of Asia, rather than the Sea of Japan, which reminds everyone of the tragic modern history of cruel war and imperialism. It is a reasonable action.
Kim Eun-mi,
Chungnam Foreign Language High School
***
That really distorts the original column, and really distorts what I and we were trying to say. At first I debated whether printing the version sent to me, but after seeing this weird cut-up, I'm glad I did.
I also didn't print the name of her school at first, evne though it was in an email I received. I see that it has about six native English speaker teachers, so I wonder if maybe Eun-mi and Ha-young could be different, and that these letters were encouraged by somebody over there. We'll see, but anyway I stand behind my opinion and what I've written on it.
Brian, maybe I worded that poorly. My objection is that you seem to think that lacking English proficiency and thus misusing English in (any) advertisements, song lyrics, t-shirts, and so forth invalidates a person's opinion on a _naming_ dispute.
You usually make very good points (so I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here), but that one just seems to bring it down to an almost childish manner. Much like "This Is Me Posting" holding the student accountable for the actions of her "countrymen" in arguing about the Treaty of San Francisco. If we were going to follow the letter of the law, so to speak, there wouldn't be this dispute.
And, on that note
"This Is Me Posting": You also can't say the UN took a stance to use "Sea of Japan" in one breath and say that they weren't taking a stance on the subject in another. The UN's decision was to continue using "Sea of Japan" out of convenience and not of merit. [Of course, in international discourse, convenience and understandability surely has a lot of merit.] Though, it's typical diplomatic UN BS if you ask me.
My objection is that you seem to think that lacking English proficiency and thus misusing English in (any) advertisements, song lyrics, t-shirts, and so forth invalidates a person's opinion on a _naming_ dispute.
Doesn't it? The idea of wanting to "correct" someone else's English, while Korea has mistakes in English everywhere is laughable.
Leave my language alone, please.
Oh....these people are so obtuse. The sea is east of nothing but Korea. So the mighty Chosun people want everyone to call it East Sea?! Rediculous and absurb beyond comprehension.
And notice the seething anger in the young lady's letter. That anger these people have in their hearts that comes out so quickly and often. I am tired of this. If you read Frantz Fanon, he writes about how the African colonies needed to rise up and kill the colonizers to get their land back. If they were just given the land back without taking it, the people would be psychologically damaged by that. Extrapolate that to Korea and Mr. Fanon is spot on.
How can they say calling it Sea Of Japan implies Japan's ownership of the waters, but then say calling it the English Channel doesn't matter? They sound the same to me.
I don't know about the rest of you, but the name of a body of water doesn't make me think about who "owns" it. In the minds of the rest of the world, it DOESN'T MATTER who "owns" a piece of water. I know it matters to Korea and Japan for stupid nationalist reasons and not so stupid economic reasons, but then they're the only ones that care, and the only ones that should change the name in THEIR languages.
@JS
You also can't say the UN took a stance to use "Sea of Japan" in one breath and say that they weren't taking a stance on the subject in another.
Uhh, yes I can? They took a stance to call it "Sea of Japan." They did it for international convenience since Korea is the only country in the world that refuses to call it so. They never said that Korea can't call it "East Sea" in Korean, simply that they would use Sea of Japan when referring to it anywhere else.
I fail to see how I've somehow altered this information in the way you've described.
The UN's decision was to continue using "Sea of Japan" out of convenience and not of merit.
Yes, this is EXACTLY what I said. What are you complaining about?
The only thing that I can guess you might have issue with is this:
So, not only has the UN been officially using "Sea of Japan" since 2004, your 1994 incident didn't even take place and it was Korea that went against the UN's stance. Ms. Ha-young's Japanese UN dissension is some pretty hard REVISIONIST history.
Let me clear up your misunderstanding for you:
• Mrs. Ha-young's point was that Japan ignored the UN's decision to give equal weight to both names for the sea after a fictitious 1994 declaration.
> This would obviously mean that the UN itself would be ignoring their own ruling if in 2004 they decided to simplify discussions by using the Sea of Japan moniker.
- What this means is not that I'm saying that I'm siding with the UN based on this neutral decision, but that Mrs. Ha-young is selecting certain parts of the story, fabricating others and leaving out additional information 10 years after her point of contention to support her claim. She's saying the UN did one thing, but ignoring that the UN said another thing TEN YEARS LATER.
See where I'm going with this?
Furthermore,
• Mrs. Ha-young's point was that Japan ignored the UN's decision to give equal weight to both names for the sea after a fictitious 1994 declaration.
> Not only can I not find any information on this "1994 event," what I CAN find is that in 1995, Korea decided to remove "Sea of Japan" from ITS maps.
- What this means is that not only is she making up an argument to make Japan look bad for using the internationally standardized name for the sea, she blames Japan for doing EXACTLY what Korea ACTUALLY DID. Korea, by not putting Sea of Japan on their own maps, is IGNORING THE UN DECISION OF "1994." My statement was simply pointing out the hypocrisy.
---
So please, explain to me one more time exactly what it is I can and can't do again?
I used your article in 2 of my adult classes and spent most of the time explaining (arguing?) with them that the article had nothing to do with what the actual name of the body of water was, but more to do with a foreigner in America telling American's how to speak their native language. I then asked them how would they like it if I took out a full page ad in a Korean newspaper telling them the country is not named "미국" but "다 유나이텟 스탯스 오프 아메이카" and they now had to change all their maps to reflect that change.
It was an uphill battle, and I had one guy (and few others in a different class) try to take up the entire class telling me a viewpoint very similar to the girl's letter, but by the end of the class he (and the others) consented that your article had nothing to do with that.
It's like Koreans see "Sea of Japan" or "Dokdo" and all reasoning just goes out the window. The insane nationalism comes into play and every word written after is ignored.
I could write an entire article going on about how the Sea of Japan is the wrong name due to the evil Japanese imperialists, and still have Koreans arguing that it's called the "East Sea" Then they would tell me I have to rewrite my article because they wouldn't have read anything beyond "Sea of Japan".
It's like they want to be the victim and the bully at the same time. Strange.
Matt:
"Doesn't it? The idea of wanting to "correct" someone else's English, while Korea has mistakes in English everywhere is laughable.
Leave my language alone, please."
I guess this is why I think the dispute has some validity and that it is fine to let it play out (while ignoring the true crazies and admitting many could use a bit of careful rethinking on their stance): English is not your language. It isn't my language. It isn't the language of the Western World. It is the English language (and I mean that without any relation to the English), one of the most spoken languages in the world, and the de facto standard language for the entire world. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a higher level of geopolitical equity from such a language---which is why it is hard to understand why so many English speakers seem to take the dispute so personally. I sometimes wonder if it isn't an exaggerated reaction from living away from one's (English-speaking) homeland, which I myself definitely exhibited while living in Korea.
What if a multilateral announcement by Korea and Japan, throwing in North Korea and China for good measure, stated that they felt the up-to-then use of "Sea of Japan" wasn't right or wrong, but would like to henceforth use, and ask the international community to join them in doing so, either "East Asia Sea" or "Japan-Korea Sea" (The ordering being a concession from the 2002 World Cup =P). Would that be as contentious as Korea's current dispute?
"This Is Me Posting":
Re-reading your post, I have to say, I'm sorry. Maybe I misread between the lines or just didn't understand the point you were trying to make, but you are right that there is a tendency towards hypocrisy in all the finger pointing, which Ms. Ha-young does as well. (Though, I don't think it goes against the UN decision to leave the matter open for either country to try and promote either "Sea of Japan" or "East Sea." Let the two countries act out for all I care.)
"The only thing that I can guess you might have issue with is this:
So, not only has the UN been officially using "Sea of Japan" since 2004, your 1994 incident didn't even take place and it was Korea that went against the UN's stance. Ms. Ha-young's Japanese UN dissension is some pretty hard REVISIONIST history."
I'll just say. I don't have an issue with that statement. I don't care so much about whether the dates are right as I do that (as far as I know) despite what Ms. Ha-young states, the UN didn't decide that both names should or must be used, simply that they are both to be accepted.
To nitpick, I'd just say that the UN did not decide to use "Sea of Japan" in 2004. They just confirmed that they would continue to follow their 1977 (non-)decision to use "Sea of Japan" out of convenience and let the matter stay open. Personally, I think they just didn't want some Korean netizens getting on their back and decided to placate them a little. =P To us, that just means that the UN, like everyone else in the world, will use "Sea of Japan." To many Koreans very passionate on the subject, the 2004 decision didn't change anything, and the 1977 decisions continues to be a small step from "Sea of Japan" being set in stone to the UN acknowledging that there is a dispute.
=====
In summary, I didn't really have a good reason to call you out, so I apologize if I was rude. Just been one of those days.
The problem stems more from the way Koreans demand that English be "corrected."
This type of foot stomping and whining doesn't play as well in the west as it does in Korea. If Koreans actually stopped taking out full-page adds claiming that the English language was wrong and actually attempted reasonable diplomacy, they might be met with a more favorable response. Until then, (I'm going to borrow from Kushibo here) please, shut the fuck up.
It feels really good to write that. That must be the reason why he does it.
My perspective is the same as Matt's: there's a difference between writing into a local newspaper and taking out ads "correcting" English.
Anyway, it looks like the article came up in conversation at the Chungnam Foreign Language High School, because I was just forwarded another letter to the editor from a high school student there:
***
Dear Mr. Brian Deutsch
I have just read your article about how non-Koreans think about the East sea advertisement. I thank you for giving Korean people other perspective. However, it seems that you and the others who sent you the opinions did not clearly understood the extraordinary circumstances between Korea and Japan. Also, it seems like some of people who sent you the opinions were out of point.
For first, when the International Hydrographic Organization named the sea between Japan and Korea ‘the Sea of Japan’ in 1929, Korea was the colony of Japan. As a result, Korea’s opinion upon East Sea vs. Sea of Japan naming dispute was not accepted at all. If our government had right to protest and did nothing to let the IHO consider our opinion, we would have nothing to say. However, officially, we did not have right of diplomacy.
Secondly, in your article, you stated Sea of Japan is accepted name in English. However, in the era of imperialism, western powers named Asian or African places on their own. For example, the big city in India, Bombay changed its name to Mumbai, because the former was the name that distorted by English colonial government. Just like that, Western Powers and Japan changed name of the East Sea through the IHO, not considering Korea’s Opinion. So, as you can see, it is very offensive, and shows you and your opinion senders do not have knowledge about East Sea vs. Sea of Japan that saying Korean urging changing name of the sea between Japan and Korea as ‘Korean Imperialism’.
Third, one of your opinion senders said ‘it is nonsense that people who can not speak or write in English well teach English speakers.’ However, I thought your article was about East Sea advertisement, not criticizing Korean’s humble English ability. On next article, I am looking forward to read the one which focused more on the topic.
Again, I thank you for providing Korean different perspective, and hope you correct some wrong parts that I pointed.
***
Koreans need to stop telling us what we know and what we don't know.
The more they tell me I don't know something, the less I want to listen to them.
Cheers to that TISP'ing!!
In all my life I never knew that Japan conquered Korea (until I moved to Korea) or that the US essentially melted large portions of Tokyo with fire bombs (until high school US History) or that one day Britain decided to pull out of Sudan and rather arbitrarily united North and South just before doing so (until I read an August '09 edition of Time or Newsweek).
But none of the history really matters when it comes to what I call those places now.
Nor does it matter to me what the mountain next to my school is called. Is it the original Korean name for the mountain or the Korean name the Japanese gave it (which is really confusing... why did the Japanese rename things in Korean? it would have made more sense to rename them in Japanese)?
I just don't care. Because I'm going to call it whatever someone tells me it's called. Samgaksan or Bukansan. It's all Greek to me.
However, the Sea of Japan isn't Greek, Japanese, or Korean. It's English. And I speak English. The Sea of Japan isn't a country that can vote a name change (Burma) or a city that can change it's name (Mumbai) or a person who can change shimself into a different gender.
It is a non-political proper name for a place. An example from my own life: there is this pond in my neighborhood. It sits entirely on one plot of land but was always commonly used by all to ice skate, fish, etc. The guy who owned it for a long time was called Mr. Pilcher. And thus it was called Pilcher's Pond.
Now, partially due to alliteration but mostly because of tradition no one refers to the pond by it's new owner's name.
Similarly, the Sear's Tower will always be the Sear's Tower despite the fact that it is now called The Willis Tower. Regardless of what Wikipedia, lawyers, judges, God, or anyone else says... I will always call something what I have always called it because it's entirely arbitrary what non-political proper name we give something.
And for the record, I never thought the English Channel belonged to England, the Sea of Japan belonged to Japan, the South China Sea belonged to China, or the Atlantic Ocean belonged to Atlantis. We named them those things in English because we can reference their location more easily. I would never call something the East Sea because I'm not aware of a place called "East".
Also, as a citizen of the Modern Age I put all my faith into the internet. I'm not really your friend until we're Facebook friends, and Google Earth is always right.
Just look at the region in question. It is pretty clear to me that both the East Sea and the Sea of Japan exist. They are two separate bodies of water according to Google Earth. Definitive. Print that in a newspaper.
The chairman of the session stated that "individual countries could not impose specific names on the international community and standardization could only be promoted when a consensus existed."
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/9th-UNCSGN-Docs/E-CONF-98-136-Report.pdf
(page 69)
Seems like a sensible solution to me.
Until they decide between themselves they cannot tell anyone else what to call the sea, regardless of language.
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