Anyone know how school admin feel about pregnant unwed english teachers? Just found out I was expecting and the father lives over seas.
And her follow-up:
Thanks for all the replies! I will be starting at a new school in November and won't be showing for awhile. I just hope they don't fire me and leave me stranded!
Perhaps I have the minority opinion nowadays, but being pregnant and single isn't a good thing. And perhaps it's considered a moral gray area among foreign English teachers here, but it really shouldn't be, as a school should have no responsibility to retain a single woman who, surprise, came to her new job two months pregnant. I can imagine the outcry from teachers if she did "get fired for being pregnant," but why would a school want a teacher who can only fulfill half her contract? And what does she plan to do when it's time to give birth? I hope she starts getting good advice on that thread, and I hope she takes it.
41 comments:
Whatever happens to her (and she may be in for some unfair treatment), it will be because she's pregnant and not because she's a foreigner.
In fact, she may get a lot more leeway because she's a foreigner than if she were a Korean (or even a kyopo, which she might be).
*headdesk*
This just seems like a recipe for disaster and then lots of ranting about how Koreans are awful and intolerant.
Okay, this has compelled me to talk about something that I've had to dealt with numerous times over the years, something I hinted at in a past epic rant. Having seen some dishonesty played as victimhood, I could see the following scenario going down, since it is similar to something I've seen in the past.
I'm going to call the pregnant woman Debbie. No special reason, but I want to stop referring to her by a description.
So Debbie comes and she is hiding her condition, maybe even being directly dishonest about it (lying if she is asked if she's pregnant). Then Debbie will eventually be discovered to be pregnant, which will cause either minor or major issues, depending on her bosses and other teachers. I don't know the law, but I know that Koreans themselves often have trouble getting the letter of the law followed, and I don't think the letter of the law amounts to much paid time off anyway.
At some point, Debbie will likely lie and say that she did not know when she came that she was pregnant. She may lie about other details in order to provide a cover story of there having been no deception.
Then, if she is treated badly, this will be a Dave's ESL story. Some will remember dishonest Debbie, but many won't. It will then become an "unfair hagwon managers" and "fu¢ked up Koreans" story and a whole lot of people will be rallying around someone who has been lying about their case.
And that is why I cautiously and skeptically question this or that when I hear about the newest outrage of the day. Considerably more often than not, when I have been privy to the details of some notable case, it has not been the poor-innocent-victim scenario that it has been made out to be.
I am a sucker for people who are genuinely in a bad situation, even when they are partly culpable for their own predicament. Matt Robinson, for example, was someone who should have had insurance or shouldn't have been here, but his case was so unusual and extreme that it was worth at least my 100K won and a couple of blog posts to help out (and it's not like my money is useful here in Hawaii). I helped out a half dozen or so Canadian and American E2s who were arrested for drug usage because — although they were effing stupid for what they'd done — I thought there was a real chance that their respective embassies were not doing enough to have their back (they were being arraigned on a Sunday, which seemed unusual) and they still were in a position where they needed to be saved from their own stupogance.
But if someone is going to lie to me, then all bets are off. Debbie is walking into a situation where she is attempting to deceive her employer. Yeah, it sucks to be a pregnant woman and not be able to get a job, but I don't know that that justifies lying and deception.
Trouble follows some people; I met a few people in Seoul this summer who just ranted and raved at how dishonest, corrupt, messed up, fu¢ked up, racist, sexist, etc, the Koreans were and it was clear to me and the other English speakers around them that they themselves were the problem.
Sorry if I'm going on and on, but I see this as one of those future celebrated cases that we happen to witness in the early stages.
I should add that just because I'm skeptical doesn't mean that my suspicions are always right. I've encountered some sob stories in Seoul that sounded like b.s. but they turned out to be true.
Well said, Kushibo.
Being forthcoming with one's potential employer during the interview process, receiving assurances that the pregnancy is okay, and then being fired upon arrival is one thing. Not explicitly stating it during the hiring process is something else entirely different -- and I do believe the onus is on her to share this information since it directly impacts her ability to finish a contract.
One thing that has really struck me with a few Korean bloggers recently (and no, Brian, you're not one of them) is that they have a tendency to complain about Korean employer's behavior that is the same as what one can find in the USA, and presumably other E-2 supplying nations. Foreigner Joy, for example, talked about how it was "unfair" for her school to discuss her performance without her present to "give her side" to events. 아이고. At some point it becomes necessary to realize that, no, it's not always cultural differences; sometimes it's just something that some English teachers haven't gone through in their home countries due to job/ employment inexperience.
It's a pregnancy, not some life-threatening disease! Get over it!
What about when it's time to give birth? Check your contract: You probably have a 60-day maternity leave clause in there. And, hey, what a surprise, I hear that there are hospitals where ladies give babies all the time in Korea!
Is the question as to whether she'll be able to physically teach while pregnant? Ummm, gee, I have a funny feeling that lots and lots of these mythical pregnant ladies are already teaching around the world.
The only thing I can see in this post that would raise any concerns is that she is naive enough to think the school is going to keep the job for her if she doesn't show up on time.
The fact of her marital status can be worked around - and/or chalked up to weird things foreigners do.
The last contract I had to fill out had a "morals clause" to it which gave them grounds to dismiss me if I did something, well, immoral or unethical.
If I were an unwed woman who was pregnant, I dare say that at my employer that would constitute such grounds.
I'd just like to point out, however, that at no point did she say she was single. She said she's "unwed." So I think it's a bit unfair to say it's a bad thing that she's pregnant - taking Korea/job etc out of the equation - because I don't see why marriage is required when in reality it changes very little except on paper.
However, in this particular case, this should have been dealt with way back when she was offered the job, her potential employer should have known as soon as possible that she was pregnant.
If she's have shown a good attitude and been keen to come to Korea and teach, maybe her employers would even have taken a liking to her and she'd have been fine. As it stands, though, she won't be, and I don't see it as anyone's fault but her own.
"Check your contract: You probably have a 60-day maternity leave clause in there."
In 13 years, I have never had nor seen nor heard of ANY contract with such a clause. It's covered in the labor laws, but we're talking about employers who may not exactly wish to follow the laws... Korean women have have a difficult enough time in these situations, nevermind a foreigner.
I'm inclined to agree with Kushibo in this case... the "morals" clause many contracts have may give the boss a way to fire her.
The woman might not have told them she was married. If she did say she was single, then she should tell the school that she lied because she was instructed to do so by a Korean friend who said that the questions about why she lives apart from her husband could be painful.
I worked with a Korean teacher once who was 8 months pregnant and married for 3 months. She didnt get fired. It was obvious that she had gotten knocked up.
Furthermore, it is none of the school's business if she is pregnant. And you guys know Koreans; even the administation will spread rumors to other teachers about the woman.
This teacher is being willfully dishonest, making her pregnancy the problem of others and, as Kushibo said, will turn this into an us versus them situation.
If one of my teachers got pregnant WHILE working, we would happily work with her and find a solution. These things happen. But if I found out she was pregnant before she came and hid that fact, I would offer to give her a letter of release very quickly.
That's not cold. If she's lucky, that's how it'll go for her. I can gaurantee you that she will not be given a shred of leave, time-off pay or more than the alloted sick days.
I agree with Samedi as well.
"...it's not always cultural differences; sometimes it's just something that some English teachers haven't gone through in their home countries due to job/ employment inexperience"
The problems I have had in Korea are the exact same as the problems my friends at home have with their jobs in accounting, law and contruction.
@Kushibo
"The last contract I had to fill out had a "morals clause" to it which gave them grounds to dismiss me if I did something, well, immoral or unethical."
They put that in your contract and you SIGNED IT?! Shame on you!
If it were me, I would also have them sign a morality contract, and then invoked it as soon as they had for having placed such a clause in the original contract. I would then no doubt suffer a period of unemployment.
And just why the heck would she WANT to stay in Korea when daddy is back home? If I had a pregnant girlfriend and we were keeping the little spawn, I would hope that I would be there during the pregnancy. She's pretty stupid for wanting to be over here and give birth here too. Because, unless she plans to stay in Korea for many years, she'll ultimately be taking a newborn (or nearly so) baby on a 14-20 hour plane ride home. Unless it's an avoidable situation (like a military or diplomatic move or permanent job transfer) people shouldn't be flying on transpac flights with newborns. Kushibo has it completely right in this case. Coming to Korea just to "experience" things is a pretty lame idea when you are due to give birth. Unless "Debbie" plans on making her career here, she should go home. BTW, I've never seen a teaching contract in Korea with a maternity clause. I wouldn't provide a 1 year employee with a potential of 60 days paid time off to have a baby. Heck no. I'd be paying 12 months for 10 months of work. What does she plan to do when she gets done squeezing out the brat? Stay here? With a newborn? Single? Or, how about flying home with a brand new baby? She is being ridiculously selfish in this situation on so many levels. No school (or employer) should have to give paid time off for maternity, not for a contract employee. Pregnancy is a choice.
Stevie Bee wrote:
They put that in your contract and you SIGNED IT?! Shame on you!
Shame on me? I don't know if you're being serious or not, but companies in Korea trade in part on their image, and such language (it's actually fairly innocuous stuff at most companies, but an unwed pregnant woman could potentially be bad for the image of an educational institution that deals with the education of children.
In the US, I've also encountered these, including morality clauses about drug use and drunk driving, among other things.
If it were me, I would also have them sign a morality contract, and then invoked it as soon as they had for having placed such a clause in the original contract. I would then no doubt suffer a period of unemployment.
Indeed, you would. The company in question is one that takes its contracts very seriously, and all the ROK national employees also have a morality clause in their contract. Very decent folk there, by the way.
Regarding Brian Dear's point, maternity leave may be built into national labor law, but if so, it might only pertain to regular employees (i.e., full-time on non-temporary basis), under which a one-year contracted teacher might not fall.
1994 wrote:
The woman might not have told them she was married. If she did say she was single, then she should tell the school that she lied because she was instructed to do so by a Korean friend who said that the questions about why she lives apart from her husband could be painful.
So you're saying she should lie. And she should keep lying in order to further the deception? What good would come from that? Don't you watch sitcoms?
I worked with a Korean teacher once who was 8 months pregnant and married for 3 months. She didnt get fired. It was obvious that she had gotten knocked up.
Ah, but she was still married and pregnant, and that's what's important when the little kiddies ask (or tell their mommy and daddy). Fact is, she got married.
Furthermore, it is none of the school's business if she is pregnant.
For scheduling purposes as well as others, it is their business, at least for that. In Korea at a school an unwed mother, a nose-piercing, a tattoo sticking out of the arm, etc., etc., is the business of the school in terms of image.
And you guys know Koreans; even the administation will spread rumors to other teachers about the woman.
That is not the case with the places in Korea where I've worked, and it's a bit of chutzpah there that as you're advising that the woman lie you are saying calling out the lied-to party for some bad act they haven't even yet done and might never do.
I may have misread the OP, but it seems that the woman found out she was pregnant AFTER accepting a position.
Also, isn't this a situation that could be mediated by Korean labor law? I'm sure there are laws, or at least generally accepted practices, regarding when/how a woman is required to notify her employer of a pregnancy.
Why doesn't she just wait? What's the big hurry to be here? She is being totally selfish and dishonest.
She could avoid trouble by staying wherever she is, give birth to her child then wait for a couple of years before coming here. She will need the support of family and friends to help her with that child. Most likely she will know no one if she comes here. (However, it could be a unique and positive experience for the possible friends she would make here.)
Once the child is old enough to walk,she could place the child in daycare while she works here in Korea, thus affording the child a chance to learn another language. I'm all for children having an international experience but having a child and then taking care of it alone might be too much for her and the child. She will be entitled to maternity leave but what will happen afterward?
She needs to be upfront with the employer. Yes, they will probably try to rescind the contract, but that's the breaks here in Korea.
Her main concern and focus should be on the welfare of her child.
By the way, I do believe a "piece of paper" is important. A marriage certificate does confer many benefits not given to those not married.
I'm with Kushibo on this one. Why aren't more people addressing how her antics would be another notch in reasons for Koreans to distrust NSETs?
A potential Euna Lee?
@The Expat
I agree entirely, if a teacher becomes pregnant after beginning her contract, that's one thing; but to sign a 1-year contract you KNOW you won't be able to fulfill, and lie about it, is another thing entirely.
It's possible she just doesn't realize that her Korean employers view the 1-year contract in a very literal way; they expect EXACTLY 1 year of work (minus vacation time) out of her, and if they knew she was pregnant, would almost certainly have hired someone else. This might sound cold to us, but guess what, Korean culture is different from ours. If you can't at least attempt to deal with that, you have no business seeking employment in Korea in the first place.
@Stevie Bee
Isn't a reference to "dismissal for immoral behaviour" pretty standard in Korean contracts? I'm sure at least 2 of the 3 contracts I've signed in Korea have contained that phrase. Cultural differences aside, is that really such an unreasonable thing to put in the contract of someone who will be working with children?
Maybe she is after the coveted Korean citizenship for her baby.
If she was asked during interview if there was any reason she knew of that would prevent her from working, and she said 'no', she can be fired for lying during the interview.
Back in the UK, I once hired somebody who, knowing how notoriously difficult it is to get fired, told me on her first day that she was pregnant. I offered nice maternity benefits (full pay for 3 months, 75% for the next 3 months, and unpaid leave for a further 6 months keeping your job intact). I was going to let her keep them, but she told staff that she only came to work there until she had 6 months maternity leave.
What she didn't know is that the law in the UK allows employers to refuse maternity benefits if the employee was pregnant when they started work. This is to prevent women from being discriminated against when they say they are pregnant (and simply being told 'sorry no job'), and gives employers a little slack as it is unlawful to discriminate against pregnant women - the job should always go to the best qualified person.
Anyway... my point is... people will try and claim that this is something that would never happen 'back home', yet I would bet that most countries protect the employer when the employee was pregnant before the started work.
One angle that has not been explored in this case though... how much does childbirth cost in the US? Perhaps she doesn't care about the job at all, and only cares about the NHIC coverage and cheap Korean hospitals.
I love this story in so many ways. God, please have her demand the "right" to breastfeed her kid at school.
Ms. Parker, it has nothing to do with her merely being pregnant. It has to do with her coming to a new job two months pregnant and not telling anyone about it.
And, yes, it has to do with her being unwed. I agree, asadalthought, that a piece of paper isn't that special. Look no further than the high divorce rates. But her post indicates the "father" is out of the country and out of the picture. Perhaps we've become too conditioned to single moms, but raising a kid on your own isn't a good idea, and isn't ideal.
And yes I ask what she'll do when it's time to give birth. I'm fully aware that women can leave the house when they're pregnant, and that women do work even when they're very pregnant. We've all had coteachers in that position, and probably even known other foreign English teachers who have given birth here. No, I ask what she'll do when, five or six months into her contract, it's time to give birth. She going to stay here and try to demand something from her job? She going to stay here if they take away her visa and insurance? She going to stay here without friends or family to rely on? She going to try and go back to work? They're legitimate questions.
kushibo hit it on the head. And I'm surprised the difference in responses here compared to the Dave's thread, where you can already see people trying to make this into an us versus Koreans situation, like how dare they try and mess with her right to get pregnant and work!
But as somebody said on that Dave's thread, perhaps this is just a big troll job. Nevertheless, it's been entertaining and enlightening.
Mike wrote:
One angle that has not been explored in this case though... how much does childbirth cost in the US? Perhaps she doesn't care about the job at all, and only cares about the NHIC coverage and cheap Korean hospitals.
I hadn't thought of that in this particular case, since the original question was so focused on getting the job, but that does make sense.
I know several Westerners — some who spoke little or no Korean — who decided to have their kid in Korea instead of back in the US (where it can be expensive) or Canada (where it would be cheap), and they had very good experiences.
"But her post indicates the "father" is out of the country and out of the picture. Perhaps we've become too conditioned to single moms, but raising a kid on your own isn't a good idea, and isn't ideal."
It certainly isn't optimal, but is there anything in the original post to indicate that going to Korea or remaining in the US will change the 'single mother' situation?
Honestly, if she's a single mom without outside support, she's going to need a job. Is there any difference if it is Korea or the US?
Dismissing teachers on morality grounds for pregnancy out of wedlock wasn't uncommon in the U.S. until about 20 years ago.
The case generally cited for saying a teacher has a right to be pregnant out of wedlock is Avery v. Homewood City Board of Education.
The FIRST thing I thought of when I read the post on Dave's was that she didn't have medical insurance.
Also, acording to her post, I took it that she would be going into a public school position: "Anyone know how school admin feel about..." tends to point to a public school, not a hagwon.
Also, she said that she "...will be starting at a new school in November and won't be showing for a while." HUH??? this is September, I am assuming she is ALREADY pregnant, that would make her at least 4 or more months along when she arrives, and she won't be showing?? What, is she really, really fat already? How does she figure she won't be showing?
And if it is a public school position, she will start in November, and most likely have January and February off, PAID. Not bad.
And YES, my contract with the Jeollanam-do board of education, Article 17 (Special Leave), Section 2, states: In case of a female Employee, ninety (90) calendar days for a maternity leave.
So, here it is. Pregnant already, presumably at least 4-6 weeks along. By November she will be at least 4 months along. She will work 2 months, have 2 months paid vacation, work one month, have 90 days maternity leave, during which time the school must cover her classes.
Pretty nice scam if you ask me.
Hmm... It seems to me that a public school may be more forgiving than a hagwon for something like this, but I still think it's best to tell them ahead of time.
She might be asked (strongly pressured) to do some serious work during the summer vacation after her maternity leave ends. I wonder if they would try to ask her to do at-home administrative work during her maternity leave (that would seem to be a violation of the contract, though).
What kind of school hires people to come in November?
Many schools hire at various points in the year for various reasons: a teacher has left unexpectedly, they have gotten enough budget for a second teacher, they just got the budget for a FIRST teacher, etc. I started at my public school in May of 2008, and we had folks starting at other public schools in the area in October, January, April, all kinds of random times.
Thanks for the info, Kelsey. Though I encounter many E2s and other NSETs in various capacities, I myself have not been in the market for those jobs and I wasn't so clear on how that would work for a regular school.
I really did mean that as a genuine question and not a rhetorical WTF kinda school statement. :)
What's the difference between what this woman is doing and what those who sign contracts but know they won't stay the entire year are doing? There are jerks that pull runners all the time, but I rarely see this much upset over it.
Also, while I agree it was wrong to lie to her boss, I also think that we don't have enough background information on this woman to pass such severe judgements.
Janinel wrote:
What's the difference between what this woman is doing and what those who sign contracts but know they won't stay the entire year are doing? There are jerks that pull runners all the time, but I rarely see this much upset over it.
Well, let me be an outlier then: I think that those who deliberately mislead their employer about something like this (that adversely affects their ability to stay in business) is unprofessional and deserves scorn.
If a person is going into it intending to leave before the contract is over but not informing the boss/manager/institute owner of this then his/her unprofessionalism adversely affects a lot of people who don't deserve it. The boss/manager/institute owner who has done nothing wrong but gets that treatment and has to quickly find a mid-term replacement, the teachers who must take up the slack, the English-teaching professionals in general whose aggregate image takes a hit, the kids and their fee-paying parents who lose continuity they might desire, etc., etc.
I've made clear time and time again that I would like to see English teaching return to the status of respected profession that it once was, and the planned-ahead-of-time midnight runner is antithetical to that.
Also, while I agree it was wrong to lie to her boss, I also think that we don't have enough background information on this woman to pass such severe judgements.
I'll bite. In what situation is it okay for her to do this kind of thing?
Wow - no idea this topic has grown so fast.
What we have here is exhibit N of the native-English teacher coming to Korea. Sorry, but more than a few of us came here just after graduating college, excited at getting our first job and having a plane ticket paid for by someone else. This class of IDIOTS often talks about their "rights" as though they are inalienable as the constitution they firmly believe in.
I don't know enough about Korean labor law to comment, so I'll refrain from that. Even IF you have the supposed maternity leave (highly unlikely at best), what then?! After X number of days, without a husband or caregiver present, your child is magically able to care for themselves? Whether or not your contract has a 'morality' clause in it (and thank God mine didn't have one) doesn't matter - you've placed yourself in charge of a helpless human being that you've had a huge part of creating. How the f&$! are you going to take care of it?
Perhaps I'm totally mistaken, and you'll be able to take care of the tyke. But for what? What are you coming to Korea for? Free / cheap health insurance? A job that gives you maternity leave? There are no guarantees here - even for the healthy and completely legitimate teachers...
Jesus! This might be linked to my school???
I think Foreigner Joy might have been replaced by this woman: http://foreignerjoy.blogspot.com/2009/09/pregnant-teacher-undesirable.html
Well, it's a small world.
I don't think it's necessarily "ok" for her to do this kind of thing as it's not something I could ever forsee doing myself; but I could easily picture myself in her situation and can imagine feeling pretty desperate.
If you want a specific situation in which a woman may be this desperate, I can give you several... any sexually active woman runs such scenarios through her mind because you just never know what might happen.
As for the hundreds of others who may not be pregnant but still knowingly decieve their boss:I actually think, in her case, it's more forgivable if she's doing it to better her situation and her baby's somehow. Mothers would and have done worse to protect their children.
Whoever said "babies are optional" is mistaken- I think babies are optional if you're 14 years old and get in trouble. For me, at my age, babies are not optional and while not all women feel this way, certainly a large percentage do.
I think some of the support shown her on this and on the Dave's thread is simply based on gender, with some women thinking we're arguing against pregnancy. I'm not sure how anyone can really condone what she was trying to pull.
Now, I'll say this again, the problem isn't that she's pregnant, or even single for that matter. It's that she was trying to get a new job without telling her boss that she's pregnant. I can't think of a boss who would hire somebody to a year-long contract knowing the employee can only work four or five of those months.
If she was already in her contract and got pregnant, and was staying with that school, that's a different story. But trying to hide it and switch jobs, that's what a lot of us are objecting to. And a lot of us are objecting to the people who'd go on Dave's should she get fired and say "it's not fair! she got fired for being pregnant! damn those insensitive Koreans!"
Somebody my age, or our age, would be in better shape than a 14-year-old to have and raise a baby. But, well, babies are optional, and aren't a right, and if you happen to get pregnant and can work only a few months and try to sign a one-year contract, again I'll say people are going to be upset. That contract shouldn't be guaranteed.
I agree with you, she was completely wrong to decieve her boss, but I do think this is about gender as well... see previous comments. Nobody would have cared if you posted about some jerk who pulled a runner, being pregnant was the specific reason so many people posted on this. She wouldn't have any sympathy from me whatsoever if she was planning on doing this for selfish reasons, but that fact is, nobody knows what her exact reasoning was. Yet, we all have veeeery strong opinions about the pregnant lady decieving her boss... it's totally about gender.
Janinel wrote:
As for the hundreds of others who may not be pregnant but still knowingly decieve their boss:I actually think, in her case, it's more forgivable if she's doing it to better her situation and her baby's somehow. Mothers would and have done worse to protect their children.
I don't buy that at all. She's putting a difficult administrative and financial burden on someone who had nothing to do with her decisions to do the things that led to her being pregnant with someone who would not be there to raise a child.
Moreover, this kind of thing could easily make it harder for those who are also pregnant — and wating to better their situation and their baby's and protect their children — who are not deceiving their prospective or current employer.
I see your point about babies not being optional, and a man I realize the inherent unfairness of not being saddled with the burdens of pregnancy and motherhood. But none of that justifies lying, which may actually make things worse.
In my post-college days in Korea, I have known my fair share of people who were dishonest with their employer (including dishonest with the people for whom I worked), and they usually think they have a really good reason for that dishonesty (a common one: my last boss lied to me, so I don't have to tell the truth to my new boss).
But what it comes down to is that it makes their problem someone else's problem, and often makes a problem where there wouldn't have been one in the first place.
Nobody would have cared if you posted about some jerk who pulled a runner, being pregnant was the specific reason so many people posted on this.
Sorry, but I'm one of those nobodys who would care. I've had to help people clean up the mess of midnight runners and I think it's one of the biggest blotches on any professional status English teachers in Korea have as a group.
Don't get me wrong, there are absolutely some very good reasons for some people to leave their situation behind on short notice, but that's by no means all of them. From cases I know personally, I don't think it comes close to being a majority.
So, no, Janinel, if this were a post about someone planning to get a year-long contract but only stay a few months and squeeze out as much as they could from it, I'd be very critical, especially if it involved deception.
I am sympathetic to how gender enters these discussions. The Laura Ling and Euna Lee case is one where a lot of the talk about them did seem infused with gender bias (of the "let those bitches rot" variety). And even though I have been outspoken about what they did wrong, I dished out as much rancor toward Mitch Koss, their cameraman who I think was just as much at fault as Laura Ling, and is male.
I'm not pointing this out to pat myself out for looking at this through gender-free vision, only just saying that it is possible to discuss this with little gender infusion, and I think a lot of people here have.
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